when is it too cold to work?

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Propane is a little over 91,000 Btu per gallon. A 30,000 Btu heater will run maybe 15 hours on a small tank. I pay $7.50 for a tank or a half a buck an hour. At 30 degrees outdoor, I run about h alf the time I'm in the shop. At 20 degrees and windy, I run about 75% of the time. YMMV. Portable heater, about $100.
It looks to cost about $3-400 to get a heater and plumb it

estimates
Sounds about right.

Tablesaw! ! ! Ed
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On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 04:06:28 -0500, Silvan

Why do you need a dryer? We use a solar-aeolian dryer during the summer and hang the clothes in the furnace/laundry room during the winter. Electric dryers use an incredible amount of electricity. When I got my tablesaw (a month after moving into this house), it was either a 220 plug for the saw or the dryer. The saw won. We haven't missed the dryer. Even now that I have a subpanel in the shop and the dryer is reconnected, it still doesn't get any use.

Not necessarily kick ass, just some insulation (and maybe some goop to seal the holes where air can get out/in).
Luigi Replace "no" with "yk" for real email address
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Luigi Zanasi wrote:

Yes they do, but there's not really much choice. SWMBO has a lot of stuff she has to air dry. It gets moldy long before it gets dry. Yuck. I'd give up the oven first. That's what microwaves are for anyway. :)

I think I'm going to go nuts with a couple cans of Great Stuff and some airplane tape and see how far that gets me. The building really does leak air like a sieve.
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Michael Baglio wrote:

I came into some serious cash, so now I have five, count'em, $5 in my pocket. Plus some loose change! :)

I'll have to think about this.. Lots of wild thoughts. Thanks for opening the box.
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Robert Bonomi wrote:

Hmmm... Well, it's all I have for the moment, but we'll see how it goes now that I Great Stuffed the crap out of everything. I finally had the brilliant idea to go in there and turn off the lights. Wow. Dozens of little teensy spots of light, all around the flashing where the roof joins the walls. Ah hah, that wasn't helping.
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I think I gave a wrong impression. :)
If you need the entire sustained output of _any_ kind of heater, to maintain the current 'inside' temperature, it'll take that heater a *long* time to warm the inside _to_ that temperature from the 'outside' temperature.
Under "less extreme" temperature differentials, it'll warm the place faster.

for 'cheap insulation', used newspaper _does_ work fairly well. nowhere as good as Dow R30 foamboard, obviously, but well enough to make a substantial difference. Make sure you've got a _good_ moisture barrier on the warm side of it, however.
Another source of cheap insulation is styrofoam peanuts. if you know someplace that does more 'receiving' than shipping, this can be 'found material'.
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Nova wrote:

In *Buffalo*? You mean I have more snow on the ground in Virginia than you do in Buffalo?
Sumpin' ain't right.
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I just got back from northern Va. last night....There was about 4-5 inches on the ground. None here in SE VA any way.......Brian
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When you got on your woolies, Sorel's, Expedition Capilene, Polartec 300, fingerless gloves, tasseled wool bean cover, and you still find yourself shivering, then it's time to call it quits.
BTW, even with heaters, it takes *awhile* to warm up cast iron - tho I would really know since I'm heaterless but hope to gas-ify by next winter.
For glue-ups, I bring it into the house if the temps are below the 60's.
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DCH wrote:

Starting? I'm looking at a good six inches of snow, and it's only early December.
I know there are people in other parts of the world laughing at the notion that I would consider six inches a lot of snow. Well, I don't, really, but it's not so much this snowfall as what it represents. Another long damn winter of hoping I can continue to say I've never experienced a jacknife. More gray hair. Kids going to school until June. Sigh.

All I have for heat are a pair of 1500W space heaters. I can run one full tilt and one at half wattage without tripping the breaker on the only circuit I put out there, so long as I remember to turn them off before using any machinery. (So *that*'s why everybody suggests putting lighting on a separate circuit. Sigh.)
I haven't really seen a *cold* day yet, so it's hard to say how effective they will be as winter progresses. Whatever temperature it was yesterday (probably somewhere in the 30s) I never managed to get the shop what you'd call comfortable. I let the heaters run for a good while, then dialed the thermostats back until they just cut off, to get them to hold pretty much the highest temperature they could realistically sustain without running continuously.
At the end of the day, when I rolled them back to the lowest setting for the "anti-freeze" mode, I only moved the dial a fraction of an inch before hitting the stop. They couldn't hope to come remotely close to bringing the space up to the temperatures suggested by all those unattainable higher settings on the dial.
Today, it was colder, and snowing. I set one for the max (on the end of my workbench, up on a piece of granite), and left the other (on the floor near the table saw) in "anti-freeze" mode. The "anti-freeze" heater never cut off all day, and with the two of them doing their best, I never saw 50 in the shop. With nothing close to insulation, I expected at least the snow on the roof would melt as a testament to how much heat I was throwing away. It's unfazed.
Titebond says that both glue and parts have to be above 50. I did a glue-up at 50, and while it set up, it just doesn't look normal. I think the strength of these joints has probably been compromised (they need only minimal strength anyway, so this is of no concern in this particular instance), and I think 60 is a more realistic minimum temperature target for glue-ups.
Shellac cures fine at 50 or below, but it seems to take longer to set up, and the evaporating alcohol really puts a chill in the air. Poly just won't cure at that temperature at all. I don't think lacquer will either. Paste wax takes a long time to develop a good haze, but it works at 50.
All things considered, I got my final project of the year to a state where I could do the final waxing and assembly stages in my den, and I closed up my shop. I just don't think I have enough heat to do anything useful out there this winter. Not when the temperature is much below 40 anyway. I will probably leave it closed until I get my lathe for Christmas. I'm hoping I can turn at temperatures much too cold for glue. Everything else is just going to have to wait until the weather warms up, or else I suck it up and buy some kind of propane heater that can put out some real BTUs.
Insulating the shop would help too, but that's a hard thing to justify since I don't expect it to remain standing all that much longer. The termites have done their work well, and it needs replacing. There's no A/C either, and insulation would just help keep it at 120 longer in the summer. Sigh.
Today was the first day off in a long time where I didn't spend at least half of it puttering in the shop. I think I will go nuts.
All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy. All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy. All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy. All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy. All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy. All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy. All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy. All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy. All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy. All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy. All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy. All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy. All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy. All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy. All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy. All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy. All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy. All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy. All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy. All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy. All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy. All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy. All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy. All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy. All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy. All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy. All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy. All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy. All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy. All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy. All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy. All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy. All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy. All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy. All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy. All snow and no shop makes Silvan a dull boy.
REDRUM!! REDRUM!!!!!!! REDRUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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but
Don'tcha just hate it when that happens??????
Coming up on a string of 5-6 4 wheelers following a snowplow, all except me planning to exit with the plow, when Granny decides she doesn't want to stay in line and pulls over in front of me! I'm waltzing an empty 53 footer all over the snowy/icy bridge trying to chop down that 15-20 MPH speed difference when she decides maybe she WILL wait in line!!! )*(&^&*(%%$#%^$ Trucker behind asked if I learned that move in driving school(tractor close to inside wall, trailer *almost* scraping outside retaining wall)? I said "No, but I think I will pull over @ the top of the next hill & check my shorts!"
Nahmie
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Norman D. Crow wrote:

Like I said to Dave a bit ago, "Whee ha." :)

That's one of the worst parts of it, isn't it? Trying your damndest not to kill someone who can't drive, and really needs to be parked somewhere. That's part of the day to day, but in winter it gets a lot harder. I much prefer bad weather when no one is out but cops, snow plows, and only the most determined of trucks.
I was the *victim* of a hit and run last winter. Damn fool had to get around me, and he wiped out beside my landing gear. Bounced off of me several times, and did a real number on my truck. Nobody ever hears *those* stories. They think everything is always our fault; that even when it's not our fault, we're supposed to be able to avoid *everything*.
I sure can't wait for it to be spring. Sixteen days until the solstice, and then the day length will start moving in the right direction. That will cheer me up. I'll really get cheered up in about February, when the hepatica starts to bloom in the forest.
Think spring!
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snipped-for-privacy@users.sourceforge.net says...

... snip

... more snip
Silvan,
Just out of curiosity, what is a reasonable distance to pull in front of a truck when in traffic that is more or less stop and go (never exceeding 20 MPH)? I always try to allow at least a couple of (your- size) truck lengths. This occurs mostly when pulling in from an on-ramp and trying to get out of a right turn only lane into the continuous lane in above mentioned backup conditions.
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truck first, and usually succeed in scaring the living bejeezis out of the driver when they cut right under his front bumper while standing on the brakes and trying to make the exit ramp before they are past it.
OK, rant mode off. Nahmie
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Those idjuts do it to regular vehicle drivers also -- something about that all-important one car length I guess. Although there have been a few times when I think I'm too close to the exit to pass the slow car in front of me, only to have it exit also and have to follow it at even slower speed on the next road for the next umpty-ump miles.

Don't blame you, I appreciate courteous truck drivers, 4 wheel drivers should show the same respect. I don't appreciate the discourteous drivers of either stripe, but the 18 wheel maniacs scare the crap out of me, wife almost got run off the road by a truck that insisted it needed the left lane despite the fact she was in that lane alongside the truck trying to pass.

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Mark & Juanita wrote:

It's called following distance. The wisest among us try to maintain it. You probably *are* cutting them off to an extent, as far as eating up the cushion they're trying to maintain, but you gotta do what you gotta do.
There's one spot on my regular route where I have to come off a clover leaf and then make it across four lanes of traffic to the extreme left within about 1/4 mile. That gets interesting sometimes.
Actually, there are *two* such places I can think of.

Tell me about it. Milepost 279 on I-40. Why the hell can't those idiots figure out that the right two lanes exit off, and the left two lanes go through? WHY???

Been there, done that. Hooo boy, have I ever. Try passing on a two-lane road in a non-flat part of the country in a tractor-trailer too. It can be done, but it's extremely difficult to find a spot with enough sight distance to do so safely, and finding such spots at a moment when there is no on-coming traffic is damn near impossible.
(And when you finally get around Grandpa after 50 miles of torment, you look in the mirror to see if you're clear, and see that he's in the process of turning off.)

I could spend a couple of hours scaring the hell out of you with blind spot stories, but for the sake of argument, we'll just assume that particular driver was a total maniac and let it go.
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Silvan wrote:

The people that get me are the ones who drive next to a truck for miles on end.
I don't care how good an operator a trucker may be, there are things that happen where they can't keep the truck in lane. Sudden cross winds are a good example.
Not all trucks are in the best of repair. Slacks go out of adjustment causing brakes to pull. Tires have been known to part from rims.
Mayhaps it's because I'm paranoid, or because I've ridden motorcycle off and on for 20 years that I've had occasion to imagine what would be left of me if I tangled with a heavy truck. Damnit if I'm going to make a pass I'm going to get the hell around trucks with haste and never ride/ drive next to one longer than I have to.

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Mark wrote:

FWIW, even though I'm driving a truck myself, I echo everything you just said wholeheartedly. The situation changes somewhat in thick, slow traffic, but at highway speeds I never dawdle beside another truck any longer than I have to. Makes me edgy. Since I'm wider than you, the chances of him slipping into my lane and bumping me go way up, and if your right mirror gets torn off, you're in for a bad day. DAMHIKT.
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On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 18:36:11 -0500, Silvan

Stick hauler? Lumber? Logs? Is this and OWWR?
I've known a couple of log truck drivers who have died when the load overran the cab. Usually their own fault, though. Sixty mph+ on dirt logging roads just aint smart.
Tim Douglass
http://www.DouglassClan.com
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Tim Douglass wrote:

Furniture, man, furniture. We stick haulers, as a rule, don't need no stinkin' training wheels, so we drive 14-wheelers. Saves on tolls, saves on taxes. We're rated to haul only 56,000, which is less than we *could* haul, and a lot more than we ever do. I've never scaled out in seven years, and don't remember how to slide tandems. Some guy asked one time, and I had to just throw up my hands and say "Man, I'm a stick hauler. I have no idea how to do that anymore."

I don't think I'd ever consider hauling logs for the simple reason that the DOT cops seem to love them so very, very much.
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