Walnut and Glue

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On Mon, 26 May 2008 21:13:04 -0400, Tanus

Howdy,
Is there any possibility that, at some point, the glue had frozen?
All the best,
--
Kenneth

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wrote:

Maybe the glue was old???
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Allow the glue to cure 2 days before working the piece, longer if the piece is large. Make sure the mating surfaces fit well before you apply glue.
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Tanus wrote:

Hard to say but it is obvious that either your glue is no good or the wood surfaces being glued were "dirty". I suspect the latter.
Was the "kindling pile" inside or outside? Did you machine or sand the wood surfaces to be glued so that you had nice fresh, dry, unoxidized, unweathered wood for the glue?
BTW, clamp pressure depends much on the hardness of the wood; butternut is soft, doesn't need as much pressure as walnut which is harder and walnut doesn't need as much as hickory which is very hard. Same thing for planarity of surfaces...one can get a satisfactory glue job with two relatively rough, non-matching butternut surfaces by increasing the clamp pressure...can't do that with hickory - or at least I can't.
--

dadiOH
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says...

My first thought at that sort of spectacular glue failure would be 'wet wood'. Wet is not always obvious, but wood above a certain moisture content does not seem to bond well with any waterbased glues that I've used (I haven't used titebond, since it's not commonly sold in these parts; but I understand it to be a member of the 'white glue'/pva/aliphatic family, also).
-P.
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Peter Huebner wrote:

It is in that family. And I'd tend to agree, but this wood was tinder dry. I"m still not sure what the issue was here. I've not had a chance to glue anymore of it, but will let you guys know when I do.
Tanus
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Go to the lumber yard and get a "pine" 1 x what ever( ask for a cull it is cheaper and will work fine). Cut the board into 2 inch wide strips about 10 inches long. Get a NEW bottle of glue, I like Titebond ll but any white or yellow glue will work, Try to stay away from Titebond lll for this. Now take two strips and put glue on about 6 inches on the end of one of them and put them together so that you have a unglued surface on each end and the glue joint in the middle ( you should have a "handle" on each end of the glued up wood). Clamp and set aside to dry. You should do this with several samples, changing the amount of glue, clamping pressure etc with each sample, one with a lot of glue so that is runs out of the joint, one with very little glue, one with glue spread evenly on one surface, one with glue spread on both surfaces etc etc.. You should vary your clamping method, strong clamp, light clamp, tape for clamp etc. Allow to dry for a least 4 hours the longer the better. When cured take one of the "handles" and place in a vice and whack the other end with a hammer until the joint breaks, Look at the broken joint and you will see which method is strongest and best for you. All wood should act pretty much the same with what ever gluing method and glue you used, some better some worse depending on the glue and wood but similar. Now you have a gluing method to use. Next on the faces of the boards you glued up, you hand planned them, are you sure that you got them perfectly flat? I find it hard to get them perfectly flat with a hand plane, it seems to work better with a planner or jointer when doing face glue ups.
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Did you do the "TV woodworker" type of glue up -- squirt a little glue on one side and press together -- for the best bond, glue should be spread evenly and lightly on both pieces and then clamped together. For working on the final result, wait 24 hours, even though it looks glued, it may not be set strong enough to withstand pressures and stresses.

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Tanus wrote:

two things come to mind: 1 - bad glue - i'd consider this most likely - go to the borg and get a new bottle of titebond and try again.
2 - oily wood? Don't know what your kindling pile is, so is it possible your two pieces are not walnut, but a more tropical wood that has a high oil content?
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Remember your experience with epoxy?
Patience is a virtue.
Neither epoxy or TiteBond like cold weather or being put to work before they are ready.
Lew
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Lew Hodgett wrote:

LOL. Lew, you have a memory like my wife's. What's worse, you and she are right way too many times.
But, you have a point. The epoxy failed the first time precisely because of the cold. This time, I really dunno. I'll get some new glue and give it another whirl.
Tanus
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"Tanus" wrote:

I know, but I comb my hair so it covers it<G>

Why not use the epoxy you already have?
Lew
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Lew Hodgett wrote:

It's old by now, too? :)
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"dpb" wrote:

After 5 years, might want to check it.
Before that, use it.
Lew
PS: That's assuming it is stored properly.
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Lew Hodgett wrote:

also expensive as hell, and I don't want to use it for ordinary glue-ups. I'm certainly a convert, Lew. The stuff is amazing in tough-to-fix jobs, but for this, if I had considered it, would have seemed a waste. I'm also sure that it would have worked well.
Tanus
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"Tanus" wrote:

Prices vary widely for epoxy and amount purchased has a major impact on pricing.
Not sure what "It's also expensive as hell" means price wise, but a 1 gallon kit is worth a look.
Lew
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Tanus wrote: ...

Out of (more or less idle) curiosity, any idea how old what you used actually is? IIRC, a year is the suggested shelf life for TB III, but I've seen no change in gluing properties of that kept far longer.
It does tend to thicken somewhat and get stringy, but as noted on the container, a jarring of the container (not stirring, but vibrating) will reconstitute its properties unless it is, indeed, too far gone. (It's a very unusual-behaving material in that regard; I've never observed a similar characteristic in any other material).
Also iirc, the chalk temperature is 47 F, so if it is cool at night yet still above freezing, even if the glue is warm enough being stored in the heated cabinet, if the wood is colder than that, it will cool the glue and the result could be the failure of the type you observe. Does the glue surface appear to be dry and chalky after the failures? If so, that would be a very suggestive indicator of low temperature. I had forgotten to mention the wood temperature as well as glue before.
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dpb wrote:

I bought my current Titebond in early 2008, Jan or Feb. All temps, glue, wood and environment, were above 60 when the glueing was done, but overnite temps may have dipped into the 40s. I bring glueups into the house in the winter, but don't in spring/summer. This piece was so small, it would have been easy to bring it inside to cure overnite, but it never entered my mind.
You may have something here.
I"m still going to get new glue.
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turnings. We would glue a sacrificial piece on the bottom of the stack with a piece of newspaper between the good stuff and the sacrificial. When we were done turning we would pop off the sacrificial piece. It somehow survive turnings. I do not know how safe the practice was but I do not recall any disasters. I would bet we let that glued up stuff dry a few days in a 70 degree shop.
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Well, I'm mostly corn-fused about glue thickness and pressure. Fine for a lab or industrial setting, but for me it seems reasonable to put a smooth coating on both sides, them clamp "tightly." When I've tried to break glue joints later, the wood separates indicating the glue was strong enough.
In the OP, the one thing I noticed was the lack of time between gluing and working. I think the Titebond label says something like "sets in 30 mins, full strength in 24 hours." I always wait 'bout an hour to unclamp, then overnight before I trust the joint. And if I don't need the clamps right away, they usually remain clamped overnight.
I think all of the above suggestions have merit, but the big factor would seem to be the time between gluing and working.
Hope this helps.....
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