WalMart redux

Page 4 of 5  


WW has been accused of racism often. If it has ever been proven, it would make a case easy. I'm sure many lawyers will want to take a snipe at them just for fun though.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Larry Jaques (in snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com) said:
| What, you feel that encouraging bad lawsuits should be praised? | Encouraging a change in corporate policy may be in order, though.
Not at all what I said. I recognize that there are people in this world for whom "because I can" is sufficient justification for anything they might want to do. As authority figures in a business setting (managers), these are the people who demand limitless unpaid overtime and sexual favors, they're the gropers, the defective merchandise recyclers, the bait and switch merchants, and the customer abusers. In a less legalistic society, they'd probably end up beaten by one of their victims or the victim's family. In our society the only recourse that minimizes further victimization is through the courts.
I'm not sure that fairness and justice are always best served by our courts; but that's what we have to work with. If all you have is a hammer, then that's how you drive screws. :-(
When one of these low-life types is made an authority figure (manager), it is the result of a decision made by someone within the organization who already carries more authority (a higher level manager, an officer, or a director). In our society we associate freedom to choose (and especially to make the choices that constitute the exercise of authority) and responsibility very tightly - as if they were two sides of a single coin. We have also granted "personhood" to commercial entities, in order to encompass them within a legal framework originally designed and evolved for individual persons.
When a manager commits a misdeed in the corporate context, it is as if the corporation comitted the misdeed. Any attempt to separate the manager's responsibility from the corporate responsibility would be like telling a traffic cop: "Honest, officer, I wasn't speeding - it was my right foot's fault. I was just along for the ride." To finish the analogy, a corporation is a person with many feet.
|| Still, Wal-Mart || management issued a false felony accusation (is that libel?) and || the Tampa PD fielded an inadequately trained/screened officer who || preempted judicial powers by assuming guilt without evidence and || spoke falsely of that guilt in a public setting (as an official || representative of the City of Tampa). | | ?
"?" what? The felony allegation on the part of the W-M manager - or the official status of the cop who presumed (and vocalized his presumptions) that an innocent man was guilty?
-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 13:02:58 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm,

So is it better to sue for many of the funds the corporation owns or is it better to force the corporation to rid itself of these idiots? The former increases costs paid by you and me.

OK, I see what you're saying. (Are you a lawyer, perchance?) I thought you meant that the management made a public statement regarding the guy. So, do you want to see a high-digit lawsuit against Tampa for some potentially bigoted/idiot cop's antics? Or would you rather see him (and his fellow officers) better trained and/or in another line of work?
--
If you turn the United States on its side,
everything loose will fall to California.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Larry Jaques (in snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com) said:
| On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 13:02:58 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm,
| || When a manager commits a misdeed in the corporate context, it is || as if the corporation comitted the misdeed. Any attempt to || separate the manager's responsibility from the corporate || responsibility would be like telling a traffic cop: "Honest, || officer, I wasn't speeding - it was my right foot's fault. I was || just along for the ride." To finish the analogy, a corporation is || a person with many feet. | | So is it better to sue for many of the funds the corporation owns | or is it better to force the corporation to rid itself of these | idiots? The former increases costs paid by you and me.
This is a question each of us needs to consider. For myself alone: I am willing to pay a share of the cost for those I care about to live in a free, fair, and just society - and you might be a bit surprised at the number of people I care about - and by just how much I happen to care.
|| "?" what? The felony allegation on the part of the W-M manager - or || the official status of the cop who presumed (and vocalized his || presumptions) that an innocent man was guilty? | | OK, I see what you're saying. (Are you a lawyer, perchance?) I | thought you meant that the management made a public statement | regarding the guy. So, do you want to see a high-digit lawsuit | against Tampa for some potentially bigoted/idiot cop's antics? Or | would you rather see him (and his fellow officers) better trained | and/or in another line of work?
IANAL. I'm a mathematician/(hardware/software)geek/full-time woodworker. If you visit the link below you can learn more about me than you ever wanted to know.
What would /I/ like? Assuming that the newspaper account was accurate:
I'd like Wal-Mart to put their money where their mouth is: I'd like for them to initiate what IBMers call "charm school" for managers - where, in addition to the mechanics of running a department or a whole store, managers are trained in how to be polite and diplomatic with even the most difficult of customers. I'd like to see Wal-Mart demote managers who can't "get it" to jobs on the loading dock, where their opportunity to abuse customers is minimized. I'd like to see one of Wal-Mart's top execs, together with the errant manager visit Mr Pitts at his GAF office and offer their apologies in person, and explain to him the steps that are being taken to prevent similar mistreatment of customers ever again at any Wal-Mart store.
I'd like for the cop in question to spend an hour with the top person in the Tampa PD, and then an hour with the Mayor - getting an earful of the damage that can be done by just the _perception_ of ethnic discrimination. Then I'd like him to go on unpaid leave long enough to visit the GAF offices and apologize to Mr Pitts in the presence of Mr Pitts' boss and co-workers. Then I'd like him returned to duty on probation with a refresher course in community relations at the police academy and a public service requirement to spend a minimum of an hour at each of the Tampa schools working with students/teachers to eliminate/reduce ethnic tensions (and Tampa does have 'em!). After these requirements have been satisfactorily completed, I'd like to see him fully reinstated.
There are significant costs involved. My take is that positive corrective action is more valuable than monetary penalties. I'm not interested in seeing Mr Pitts become wealthy at the expense of his friends and neighbors, and no amount of money can undo what he was put through. I'd rather that he, his associates at GAF, and his community see him as a catalyst for positive change in their world.
I have reason to believe that the folks who run Wal-Mart have become so enraptured by financial success that they've lost sight of the need for their enterprise to be a good corporate citizen and to participate constructively in the broader community. Perhaps putting a time limit on getting all management employees through "charm school" might help them to re-focus a bit.
I know this isn't terribly well considered and organized, but it's the best I could do off the top of my head.
Now - aren't you glad you asked? :-)
-- Morris Dovey http://www.iedu.com /
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Morris, it certainly sounds like a good solution to me. Isn't this the "taking personal responsibility" we've been hearing so much about?
In my personal life, I make it a point to personally apologize for actions with no excuses diluting the apology. My wife and I make our daughter do the same. If she wrongs someone, she needs to feel some discomfort while making it right. Own up to the behavior and let the other person know they are respected with a *no excuses* apology.
--
Owen Lowe
The Fly-by-Night Copper Company
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

I like Morris's concept. It might just have enough corporate and personal discomfort in it to work. In today's context, though, hurting the pocketbook is the only thing that comes close to working. And with a company the size of WalMart, that takes a huge, at least to me, lump of money.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 09:26:25 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm,

Charlie, you forget that all payouts affect the cost we pay for every item coming out of that corporation. Whatever raises THEIR cost-of- doing-business raises the price WE pay. And remember all the small companies/corporations who were run out of business with large lawsuits, leaving no competition to keep the prices down at their competition and leaving us paying more for the services we were trying to limit. Are you happy with the outcome of our gov't breaking up Ma Bell? (Neither am I.)
Lawsuits are bullshit. Please focus on real change, not an assumed solution.
"Be the change you want to see in the world." --Mahatma Gandhi - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - http://diversify.com Website Application Programming
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
quickly quoth:

And you would induce that change exactly--or even approximately--how?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 14:13:33 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm,

As I stated in other posts on this thread, by having the victims or their attorneys suggest to the court that it require the perps to repent their evil ways. <g>
Scenario 1: Victim tells his attorney to tell Perp's attorney that they can either:
1) Pay the victim the sum of $170,000,000.00
OR, rather hopefully,
2) Mandate some sensitivity training (and whatever else they see as good steps toward community) for all existing and all future employees, and pay his minimal (at this point) attorney costs.
Which do you suppose the perp will opt for?
A third (maybe best) option is for everyone to _just_develop_a_thicker_skin_!
---------------------------------------------------- Thesaurus: Ancient reptile with excellent vocabulary http://diversify.com Dynamic Website Applications ===================================================
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
quickly quoth:

How thick a skin is necessary? Now, let's talk real life..."shame,shame, next time I might slap your wrists" is nonsense especially in the corporate world. About like our vaunted leader's followers all being required to take ethics training, I'd say. At their ages, it's far too late to do any good.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
MUCH SNIPPED

Prove that statement. Identify one small company / corporation "run out of business with large lawsuits leaving no competition to keep the prices down at their competition ".
Cite one.
We're waiting.
You made the statement.
Back it up.
--
Jim McLaughlin

Reply address is deliberately munged.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Larry Jaques (in snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com) said:
| On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 21:36:50 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm,
| || Larry Jaques (in snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com) said: | ||| So is it better to sue for many of the funds the corporation owns ||| or is it better to force the corporation to rid itself of these ||| idiots? The former increases costs paid by you and me. || || This is a question each of us needs to consider. For myself alone: || I am willing to pay a share of the cost for those I care about to || live in a free, fair, and just society - and you might be a bit || surprised at the number of people I care about - and by just how || much I happen to care. | | Oy, another bleedin' Liberal, are ya? You guys are expensive. ;) | (Not that "Conservative" Shrub has done any better on the other side | of the aisle.) <very big sigh> Just remember what ol' Ben said | before they stuck his profile on a big bill. | | "He who sacrifices freedom for security is neither free nor secure." | -- Benjamin Franklin
Hmmm. If "giving a damn" makes me "another bleeding liberal" than I guess that's what I am. I believe that in even (perhaps /especially/) in the most free of societies, one can choose to contribute in ways that seem appropriate and desirable to oneself.
If "bleeding liberal" is an epithet to you or you have misgivings about my willingness to "pay my share of the cost", a few of the "payments" are listed at the bottom of www.iedu.com/mrd/mrd_pers.html. I don't think Ben would object much to any of my choices.
In spite of all of his carefully preserved wise words, I'm not certain that Franklin understood the true essence of freedom in all its fullness - I /am/ certain, beyond any shadow of doubt, that both Nathan Hale and Mahatma Gandhi /did/.
My reading is that the Shrub hasn't a clue; and that if somehow he arrived at that understanding in some epiphany, he'd find the implications truly terrifying.
-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 17:33:41 -0800, Larry Jaques wrote:

I'd like to believe that an incident like this, minus the realistic threat of a lawsuit, would be enough to wake up the Tampa cops department. But I don't do drugs.
Nope, the only thing that is going to have the LEAST BIT of impact on the Tampa police and on Walmart management is the credible threat of a monetary suit with a realistic probability of significant financial losses.
Those entities don't care about the humiliation and intimidation inflicted on some black guy in a tie. But they DO have to answer for their bottom line.
And that is the bottom line.
Lawsuits enforce the social contract in ways that nothing else can.
Bill
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Larry Jaques wrote:

A comment like the above reminds me of a story about Paul Brown, the football coach.
Seems Brown was having a service preformed and the guy screwed up doing the job.
The guy tried to apologize to Brown;, however, rejected it saying, "It's not your fault, it's the idiot who hired you."
I couldn't agree more.
Lew
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 07:39:26 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, Lew

Did Brown mean himself or was he referring to the contractor who hired the guy who screwed up? There's a BIG difference.
--
If you turn the United States on its side,
everything loose will fall to California.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Hmmmm.......the story could fit the perfromance profile of our erstwhile FEMA director, good 'ole "Brownie" .........
Mutt
Lew Hodgett wrote:

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 15:41:59 -0700, Mark & Juanita wrote:

In general, hell yes! Of course there are bigoted people in all classes. But having grown up in the south and then lived in Chicago and in L.A., I can assure you that the percentage of bigoted individuals goes up as their income and education goes down.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 20:28:46 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm,

So US Senators (like Byrd) are/were low-paid, eh? Bigotry has no boundaries when it comes to pay. I know lots of poor non-bigots and have read about bigoted billionaires. P.S: Your statement there might be construed to have a bit of bias, too. Careful.

Oh, bullshit, Morris. :) A few million $ here and there doesn't necessarily change a thing in a large company. A court settlement llowing them to offer classes for their employees in lieu of large fines might, though. It would probably affect the employees more than the upper managerial structure.

Agreed.
======================================================= TANSTAAFL: There ain't no such thing as a free lunch. http://diversify.com Gourmet Web Applications =========================
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Larry Jaques (in snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com) said:
| Oh, bullshit, Morris. :) A few million $ here and there doesn't
*HEY!* That's not me you're responding to...
-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA http://www.iedu.com/DeSoto/solar.html
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 22:26:38 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm,

Sorry, Charlie. (I've been wanting to say that ever since the Starkist commercials went off the air.) Sorry to you, too, Morris.
"Be the change you want to see in the world." --Mahatma Gandhi - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - http://diversify.com Website Application Programming
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.