Waaay OT - Macintosh software

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    Greetings and Salutations...
On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 13:50:51 GMT, "Leon"

    Hum...depends on what you call "new". It has been about a year now that if I wanted a floppy drive on the systems I have built that I have to specifically request it. The days when 1.4 meg was big enough for almost anything are long gone. While it is still possible to put some documents and such on a single floppy, so many of them bloat out to several meg so quickly, it is not even funny.     As an example...I ran into a 2 page newsletter (front and back of ONE sheet of paper) that was in Publisher format (ok...ok...I KNOW it is M$ and therefore by definition bloated). The files for the various issues ran from a small size of over 5 meg up to 15 meg. Now, while they did have a bunch of images, that seemed a bit big to me. When I converted them to PDF format, they DID shrink down to under a meg, in most cases... but that still would leave one newsletter per floppy only.     With the massive price drop in CDRW drives and media, it only makes sense these days to drop the floppy and go with CD. Zip drives used to be useful too, but, again...limited to 250 meg (a great improvement, but still tending to fill up quickly).     Regards     Dave Mundt
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And a Mac. If you really want to.
USB floppy drive.
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Well now, that's not true. Since I bought my Mac 2 years ago, I've not once been able to honestly complain that a crash has taken any of my data with it - in fact, haven't been able to make it crash at all, so I think that's two things.
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wrote:

I can honestly say that with the exception of when the dog kicked the surge protector switch in 1985, I have not lost any data either on a PC.
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snipped-for-privacy@swbell.net says...

C'mon guys. I made a simple request for some old Mac software and you've started the Apple vs Microsoft wars again.
At least start your own off-topic thread instead of hijacking this one :-).
--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?

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Start a wood related topic and we will go to that. ;~)
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By "Fat Mac", I assume mean you got a 512K, the second Mac? The early ones are starting to get valuable, as far as older computers go. Good find. Don't chop it up for an aquarium.
It uses 400K, single-sided disks. Same media as the 800K (or 720K for PCs). It was the first coomputer to use "modern" Sony floppy diskettes. PC makers didn't catch on for another few years.
If you can give me some time, I can find and copy most of my original System disks. I have about 50 vintage computers, mostly Apples and Apple Macs. That includes an original 128K with a 337 board serial number. I could have sold that for $1000 a couple years ago when the Japanese collecting market peaked.
GTO(John)
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On Mon, 16 Aug 2004 09:48:02 -0700, Larry Blanchard wrote:

    I have 'em. Just sent you an email from a disposeable account.
--
"Keep your ass behind you"


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Larry,
Try the newsgroup: alt.binaries.mac.applications.retro
I'm sure someone can fill your request.
Joe
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As a matter of interest all the specs for it are here: http://www.lowendmac.com/compact/512k.shtml
--
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Larry.

I believe you need a program called "rawrite" which is a PC program that writes raw binary data to a floppy without trying making it PC formatted. This should create a useable mac-formatted system disk that will boot up your old machine. (You might want to troll around the linux boards - rawrite was usually used for creating Linux-formatted bootdisks, back in the day before everyone had CD-R drives).
I predict you'll boot it, realize how brutally slow it is, squint at the tiny screen, and wonder why you went through the trouble!. Good luck with the macquarium, it sounds like a cool project!
-Marc-
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Larry.

I believe you need a program called "rawrite" which is a PC program that writes raw binary data to a floppy without trying making it PC formatted. This should create a useable mac-formatted system disk that will boot up your old machine. (You might want to troll around the linux boards - rawrite was usually used for creating Linux-formatted bootdisks, back in the day before everyone had CD-R drives).
I predict you'll boot it, realize how brutally slow it is, squint at the tiny screen, and wonder why you went through the trouble!. Good luck with the macquarium, it sounds like a cool project!
-Marc-
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snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com says...

I know about rawrite - I'm a (sometimes) Linux user since release 0.97 :-).
But according to what I could find out, the PC disk controller is physically incapable of writing in the 400K or 800K Apple/Macintosh format. IIRC, it was something about the error correction method.
But, as I mentioned in another post, several folks from this group have stepped up to help, so I'll have it up and running soon.

At my age, I even squint at BIG screens :-).
But it'll be neat to have a running version of the first consumer-level GUI.
BTW, back in the '60s or '70s, I went to a talk by a software designer who'd just finished a graphics system for the navy (definitely NOT consumer level) that showed all the ships on a world map. IIRC, it could be queried by voice, or at least by typing in a question in normal English syntax. Anyway, he said the biggest problem was making it simple enough for an admiral to use and not so simple the admirals were insulted :-).
--
Where ARE those Iraqi WMDs?

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marcj wrote:

Nope. Doesn't work. I don't recall what was different about the Mac hardware but there was something--the only way you could write a Mac-formatted disk on a PC was to use a Central Point Software Deluxe Option Board which provided the necessary hardware.

Some people collect old machines for reasons having nothing to do with current utility. I suspect that 20 years from now that machine's going to be worth a lot more working than it will as an aquarium.

--
--John
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On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 09:33:27 -0400, "J. Clarke"
    *snip*

    What was different about the Apple/Macintosh floppy drives were that they were variable RPM drives whereas PCs simply spun the floppy disk at a fixed RPM. This design decision was made, IIRC, because Jobs wanted to not "waste" floppy disk space and to simplify the electronics needed to read and write data to the disk.     Without telling you EVERYTHING I know, on a constant RPM disk, the surface velocity of the media is rather greater at the outer edge than at the inner edge of the writable area. Now... this means that the read/write circuitry needs to be more complicated, so as to be able to do its thing reliably both at the outer and inner sections of the disk. Jobs went with simpler read/write circuitry, and instead varied the RPM of the disk, slowing it down as the heads moved out towards the outer edge. This meant that the surface velocity of the media stayed "constant" no matter whether the heads were at the center of the disk or the outer edge. It not only makes the timing circutry simpler for determining where the bits are at, but, eliminates some power control circutry that controls how much electricity gets pumped through the heads.

    Yea...I, for one, would LOVE to have a working IMSAI 8080 for my (admittedly small) collection. However, every time they appear, they seem to go for well over $1000...which is too much for me to spend on a whim.     To continue the drift a bit, one of the things I really liked about my CP/M system (a z80 based, COmpuPro system named helen), was that it was really the last computer that I truly felt "in control" of. I was able to keep a picture of the internal workings of the OS and BIOS in my head, and, was able to re-program it to work the way *I* wanted it to work. Although it is a trivial thing these days, it was an exciting moment for me when I was able to re-write the BIOS (in assembler, by the by) to change the keyboard input from a polled system that came "standard" to an interrupt driven system. It worked like a charm and made my life a LOT happier.     That was a good system and still runs, although it is so limited that I really don't use it any longer, and, probably could not program a simple serial IO routine in assembler any longer. Actually, had some business decisions been made differently, I suspect that CP/M would not only still be around, but, it would have evolved much as PC/MS-DOS changed. There were extensions that were exploring the idea of a hierarchical filesystem when it was drowned by the flood of machines from IBM.     Regards     Dave Mundt
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Dave Mundt wrote:

FWIW, the Victor 9000 did the same thing for the same reason. Eventually they came out with a new diskette controller that could read and write PC disks. IIRC it involved replacing a circuit board on the drive itself--I installed a couple of them but that was a long time ago and I don't remember the details now, and neither of my 9000s have the mod.
Good example of an MS-DOS machine that was not PC compatible.

--
--John
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