Veritas MK.II Honing Guide - Excellent

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On Wed, 26 Apr 2006 09:24:44 -0700, "Frank Drackman"

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On 25/04/2006 8:01 PM, MikeW wrote: > > Narrow chisels and Japanese dovetail chisels can still be problematic. > So perhaps a chorus of one. > > There are a couple ways to mitigate the issue. One is to carefully > tighten both sides down evenly and squarely. Tis the last part of > that which affects narrow chisels the most. If the clamp bar sits > askew even a little, the pressure exerted on the chisel from a side > angle can/will cause the chisel to pivot if not downright move. > [...] > I've been happily using the older Veritas "sharpening system" for a long time, perhaps more than 15 years. The "new and improved" Mk.II seems way too complicated and prone to problems like this. I guess I just like simpler designs.[/quote:98ffade8e1] Hi Doug,
Actually, more people over the history of the former honing guide had problems with tools twisting. Add to the new one the skew registration jig--another issue people have had setting up other jigs altogether--and the cambered roller lower assembly--yet another issue--and the new jig offers quickly repeatable use.
In the classes I teach regarding hand tool use--and in particular sharpening--most of the class participants find the new guide actually easier than the former or other guides on the market. I often take a small collection of honing guides to these classes, most vintage, some other currently available guides, including the former LV honing guide and the Millers Falls on which I think it was based.
I personally only use a guide to ensure skew angled tools are honed accurately and to correct the inevitable variance from repeated hand honing. But when I do, it is quick and easy.
But the MK.II isn't for everyone. That's why we have variety.
Take care, Mike

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On 26/04/2006 1:01 PM, MikeW wrote:

The one I have is not "former", although it's old. It's the same as the current one, with the exception that the angle jig with mine only has 4 angles (2 on one side, 2 on the other), as opposed to the 5 on the current one. I have no problem using mine (and it has the secondary-bevel capability, which is what I think you meant by "cambered lower roller"). I've never experienced "twisting" while using it (well, I twisted my ankle once, but that's another story :-)
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Doug Payne wrote:

I think you're confusing the MKI and the MKII. The MKII guide uses a totally different way to set the angle and ensure that the item being sharpened is perpendicular to the guide.
Here's the MKI: http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p3001&cat=1,43072,43078&ap=1
While this is the MKII. http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&pQ868&cat=1,43072,43078&ap=1
> I have no problem using mine (and it has the

No, the "cambered lower roller" is a roller that is not actually a cylinder, but rather slightly tapered towards both ends. The idea is to allow you to hone a slight radius to the blade.
The ability to set the microbevel is separate and distinct.
Chris
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On 26/04/2006 1:48 PM, Chris Friesen wrote:

Could be, I'd never heard of the Mk-I; when I bought mine, it wasn't called the Mk-anything, near as I can remember. Now it's just called the "sharpening system".

Interesting. Neither the catalogue nor the Web site makes any mention of that, that I can see. Makes me even more convinced that I should stick with what I have; a tapered roller would probably just drive me nuts, and I can already get a radiused edge on plane blades by applying a bit of extra pressure on either side of the blade. Thanks for the info.
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Doug Payne wrote:

Yep. It's the original.

It's not actually released yet. From what I've heard it's going to be an optional accessory. The one that's on it currently is a cylinder, but I think it's wider than the one on yours. This is good for grinding flat, but not so good when trying to camber the blade.
Chris
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Doug (et al) -
I have and use the first version - and will continue to do so. All a guide is - is training wheels for muscle memory. If your techique is reasonable - just about any guide will work. If you rely on guide to set and ensure geometry despite technique - that's asking a lot. The MKII version is closer to a fixture, than a guide.
A few more random comments:
1) squareness has never been an issue for me withthe old guide... in fact, I found it an advantage that chisels and blades could move slightly...that way differential pressure could be applied to crown blades, or keep edges straight - all under user control (with good technique). Basically - it probably works well for you if you hold and move the chisel, while the guide works to keep the angle. It didn't work well for you, if you pushed the jig back and forth, relying on it to control geometry.
2) the new guide squares and clamps better - an improvement for most, but a bit restrictive now for those that have good technique. For example - it's more difficult to crown a blade - hence the upcoming additional roller. And - at more cost. The "old" guide isn't obsolete... we just have a second version now, with different attributes.
3) narrow chisels - yup - the clamping method just isn't appropriate for narrow chisels (under 1/4"). The appropriate guide for those has always been a side clamping guide. They're about $10. To add side clamping ability to our guide would add far more than $10 to the price - and it's just not good value. We won't do it.
Have to run - meeting in two minutes.. but will check back later....
Cheers -
Rob
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On 28/04/2006 10:00 AM, Robin Lee wrote:

Thanks Robin, useful as usual. ../doug
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Doug Payne wrote:

The shoulder plane blades twist on the MKII because the blade is wider than the shank that is held by the guide.
Dave
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As posted, there is a new guide.
So I think there is confusion in the thread.
The ones which use the 4 or 5-sided "platform" are the former version. The links above will show the new one as well as the "current" version of the former model, which is still sold as an alternative. The former guide was sold for a long time in basically two incarnations, mainly the difference was the change with the angle setting portion.
Honing guides are like any other tool. There are options galore out there.
The cambered lower assembly is just like described above. The roller itself is curved out to each end, and there is a flat portion in the middle for the ability to still do certain straight edge tools without changing the lower assembly.
Here's a picture of the one I cambered myself early last year:
http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/temp/roller_mod_0001.jpg
Mine I don't think is as cambered as theirs, but the principle is the same. This allows me to hone various curvetures to planes I desire them on, while still being able to accurately control the bevel angle.
I can hone as tight as a LN scrub plane blade, which I believe is a 1.5" radius. Many of my planes have some amount of camber, except thise which are for joint making or refining. Having the cambered attachment is nice, and it does not interfer, as mentioned above, with the microbevel adjustment.
My personal opinion is why should they have an exchange program? DeWalt doesn't and last time I checked, none of the other power or hand tool makers do.
Take care, Mike
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Hi Doug,
The website will within a couple more weeks I believe. Lot's of scuttlebutt around the net. As well, there are hints and confirmation of several other planes and what not.
As to cambering, that's the one thing I really appreciated about the one you have, as well as others with narrow rollers. Of course, that's when some people complained about rocking edge tools and rounding edges they wanted straight. Hence the wide flat roller on the MK.II I believe. And it's really good at that.
Then, of course, people wanted to be able to camber with the new jig--and it is darn hard to beceuase of the wide roller. What's a company to do? <g>.
Anyway, I use a lot of them especially at classes, and I appreciate their various strengths and weaknesses. Probably my favorite is that Millers Falls from the 1930s or so. It is very similar as the former LV guide you have.
Still easier to hone by hand...until I mess up an edge.
Take care, Mike
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wrote:

Kind of interesting that I ordered this just the other day. Happy to see the post!
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...Robin Lee glibly put the kabosh on relief for MK.I owners. See below. > Watch out for wrap: > http://groups.google.com/group/rec.woodworking/msg/d7f3f25c20868632?as_umsgid=LZmge.30835 $ snipped-for-privacy@news20.bellglobal.com Well, we can all interpret the point of Rob's humor as we see fit.
I personally don't see why any company would--or could--offer a discount or a trade-in for a product that had been made for so long. Especially for a product that sells for so relatively little.
But, we each have different expectations for businesses I suspect. By purchasing from Lee Valley or Lie-Nielsen, I know the product I am getting is backed by good people. Even if they don't give trade-ins.
Take care, Mike

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Jay Pique wrote:

I agree, the MKII is foolproof and painless, with fantastic repeatability. I like it better than the Keil (sp?) jigs that I started to prefer over the first generation Veritas.
The new skew attachment looks interesting!
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I am glad that I purchased the MK 2 even though holding 1/8" chisel was hard. As far as trading in old model am I missing something. Are other companies doing that. I hope so. I want HP to take back my computer when Microsoft comes out with there new improved operating system Vista.I will be now adding the skew attachment the next time I order.
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