Veneering question

[Dick Snyder]

I am doing a project that involves attaching a curly maple veneer sheet I bought at Rockler to a 1/2" thick piece of baltic birch plywood. This is my first time doing a veneering project. I taped a David Marks program on veneering on the DIY channel and watched it 5 or 6 times to get the technique down. I used a plastic resin glue and let it dry for 24 hours (my basement is kind of coolr right now). I used cauls the same size as the board to be veneered on the top and bottom and I clamped the heck out of it.

When I removed the clamps it looks like the glue was forced through some of the pores of the curly maple. I'm guessing I used too much glue. David Marks used what he called a glue squeegee to spread the glue evenly. I bought a soft rubber brayer used for scrapbooking at a hobby store for my glue squeegee. I noticed that the rubber roller didn't really roll when I was spreading the glue around. I think the glue might have been too sticky.

I am going to need to do this over. Did use too much glue? How can I get a thinner layer? Did I clamp it too much? If I didn't use too much glue or clamp too much, what else might I have done wrong?

TIA.

Dick Snyder

[bsheeres]

Hi Dick,

FWIW,

I=92m no seasoned veneer expert, but I have had great success using Joe (the) Woodworkers Better Bond cold press glue on porous veneers (madrone burl and figured walnut). According to Joe, cold press glue is thicker and sets faster reducing the chance of bleed through. I have not done a controlled test to determine if it=92s the Better Bond brand, cold press glue in general, vacuum pressing or just beginners luck that given me the success, but I have not had any bleed through yet

If you decide to try some cold press glue there is a short video on this page showing the proper amount to use.

I=92m not affiliated with Joe the Woodworker in any way; just a satisfied customer.

Let us know how your successive attempt goes.

Brian

[Andy Dingley]

I've never had any luck with rollers and veneer, always better with a narrow squeegee (I use a traditional brass-faced veneer hammer and hot hide glue). Veneer is stiff relative to paper or card, you need your force over a small area (narrower than a roller contact patch) if it's going to press viscous glue out of the way.

[Gary A in KC]

I've never really understood David Marks' fascination with plastic resin glues. They're good in some situations where you need a really long open time when doing a complicated glue-up. But what a mess to deal with.

I second what Brian said above - use a cold press veneer glue. And specifically use a glue shade that's appropriate for the veneer you're pressing. Light for maples, dark for walnut's, etc. I've also had really good luck with Joe Woodworker's Better Bond glues (have a couple gallons in the shop in various shades). He also sells excellent veneers.

But even that might be overkill. At Marc Adams' school, when doing veneering work, often times he'll just use a standard white woodworkers glue (applied to the substrate only). Application is just squirt it on the substrate, then spread it using a notched scaper (similar to a notched trowel used for laying down mortar or glues for tiles) to cover the substrate. The notches (1/8" or so) leave a good, even depth of glue across the surface which quickly relevels itself. That's the ONLY way I ever spread glues on a panel anymore. He lets it set for a few minutes to "activate" the glue and allow it air exposure to begin curing. Then apply the veneer and quickly in to the press. That's sufficient for the majority of home type veneer projects. The glue sets quickly with little bleed through. I've used Titebond for things before with good results.

You also might be surprised that your glue bleed through might not really affect your veneering too much. Sand your panel out (I use 120 to 220 grits). Then test with some finish over the top. As long as it's not excessive, bleed through is often not visible on a finished panel - however with plastic resin, who knows.

My 2 cents.

Gary in KC

[Dick Snyder]

Thanks Gary. I called Rockler and they suggested cold press glue as well. I'll have to say I did put a little water on the curley maple to see what it would look like with an oil finish and it wasn't too bad.

I am making 3 stacking tables so I will try some cold press glue on the next two and compare the results. If the cold press veneers are better, I have enough veneer left to redo the first piece that had the bleed through. I did try scraping and that plasic resin glue has tremendous hardness. No effect with the scraper. I don't own a vacuum press so I used cauls on the top and bottom of the piece that was the same size as the table top I am making (13" x 14" roughly). Is there any reason why that won't work as well as a vacuum press for this small size? I don't yet know how much veneering I will be doing so I am reluctant to invest in a vacuum press.

Dick

[Art Greenberg]

I used plastic resin glue with quilted maple veneer, and had the same bleed-through. It happens where the grain of the veneer is perpendicular to the surface of the veneer. I scraped and sanded the surface and applied my finish (polyurethane). Can't tell that the glue was there.

Technique, perhaps?

Fully cured plastic resin glue is very hard. It did take a little muscle to scrape off the bleed-through. And it beat up my card scraper a little.

I've only used a vacuum press. I doubt there would be much difference with respect to bleed-through if the pressure applied is similar.

I built my press. Purchased the pump, MAC valve and a few other parts from Joe Woodworker, other plumbing parts at the Borg. For one project, where I needed a long, skinny bag, I bought sheet material for the bag from Joe Woodworker and glued it up with vinyl cement. Well worth the small expense (around $300 total, IIRC).

Pictures on my website at

[MB]

I put a sheet of fiberglass window screen on top of the veneer before it goes in the press. The squeeze through ends up as little dots instead of smearing out. So it a lot easier to use a scraper to pop them off.

Of course you may be putting too much glue on. You should have a thin "wet" looking layer. But not enough to be runny. I spread the glue with a 6" plastic putty knife that I modified with notches. I use a triangular file and made notches about 1/8 in deep , about 1/2 inch apart.

One thing I like about the unibond 800 is that since it is not water based, the veneer doesn't start to curl when you apply glue.

this forum has a lot of veneering expertise:

[Gary A in KC]

Dick, Your pressing technique is important, but whether it's clamps and cauls or a vacuum press isn't really that significant. It's more important that you have good even pressure. That's why vacuum presses are so good - not because they give great pressure (they don't). They give good EVEN pressure across a surface. That's almost always sufficient if you use good glue up techniques and have a good veneer and substrate. Plus they're really easy to work with. Once you've used a vacuum bag system, you won't go back. I bought a pump and built my own bags (go to joe woodworker for all the info on that) and with a little practice, I never have any glue up failures any longer.

Your problem with getting off the plastic resin glue is why I avoid the stuff like the plague - it's a mess to clean up afterwards. About the only time I've used plastic resins is for bent laminations where you're trying to curve multiple pieces of wood in a glue up and you need to eliminate creep and spring back of the wood. A plastic resin will stay in the shape of the form it cured in pretty well. But it's hell on metal objects (scrapers and blades) when you try and clean up excess and cut what you've glued.

Gary in KC

[Charlie Groh]

...re. plastic resin glue: a few weeks ago a buddy and I were priviledged to do a day at Sam Maloof's house/shop/grounds and along with countless info-nuggets, we were showed the construction process of one of his pieces. The "rocker" part of the chair is a bent laminate and made in the manner that is common to such things...when asked what glue was used the answer was "yellow glue, we don't use anything else." Well that came as a small shock to a lot of us, and I'm thinking I, for one, will now be using yellow glue for my bent laminations!

cg

[sheldon.mandel]

i tried their cold press glue, and it bled through on some pretty thick maple veneer (Rockler, in fact). I was able to sand most of it out, but I haven't finished it yet. To tell the truth, I only veneer small pieces, and I've been using contact cement without any problems. I've heard that on bigger pieces, wood movement can be a problem with contact cement, but it shouldn't be an issue on plywood.

P.S. Why use Baltic Birch if your'e going to veneer it? There must be some cheaper stuff to use.

shelly

[Dick Snyder]

Thanks to the group for all of your help. On Saturday I bought some Titebond Cold Press for Veneer glue at Rocklers. I did my second veener job today. It came out great. No bleed through. What did I learn from this? I think I probably had the plastic resin glue on too thick and I probably applied too much clamping pressure. A vacuum press applies 1500 pounds per square foot or just over 10 pounds per square inch. I probably overdid my clamps. I think I will stay with the Cold Press glue based on other replies I received here.

Dick Snyder

[Dick Snyder]

I had some lying around and I didn't need huge pieces. MDF is cheaper but I only had a single 1/2" large piece that I didn't want to cut up

[Gary A in KC]

Maloof usually doesn't do anything that requires exact shaping. The curves on his rocker can spring back just a little without any noticeable effect in what he's doing (that's how I've done rockers as well). I think he once said he overdoes the curve in his clamping form to account for it a little. Plus, I don't think the normal rules of woodworking physics apply to Sam Maloof. If you got to see him use his bandsaw, you understand why. The guy does just amazing work and has always been one of my biggest inspirations in this hobby. His sense of design and his woodworking skill has always impressed me. I envy you getting a chance to see his shop and grounds - How'd you manage that?

Gary in KC

[Gary A in KC]

Shelly, I use baltic birch a lot when the veneer panels I'm using are going to be attached in some way to other parts of the piece I'm building (e.g. with biscuits to solid wood or when I need to anchor something with screws to the panel). MDF is probably the best for veneering, but only if you don't need the fastening/gluing properties of a better substrate. I use baltic birch because it's very stable, has little to no voids in it, and has good gluing and screw holding abilities. Most recent project I'm doing, I needed to edge biscuit a veneered panel to solid wood and needed to be able to screw drawer slides to the inside of the panel. All of that works better with a plywood substrate.

Gary in KC

[Swingman]

"Gary A in KC" wrote

That will only be determined, with certainty, in 100 years or so.

[Charlie Groh]

...a friend with "contacts" would be the means, I just went along for the ride, Gary. And, yes, his bandsaw technique is...uh...organic?! LOL, I'm afraid I'm kinda the same way with tools and will inevitably find the use the item wasn't designed for...I don't own a bandsaw and have been making do without for quite awhile now, but you can bet I want one now! AFA bent-lam, I did a 6 foot tall 13 lamination piece (a big ol' "S" with a Wyland dolphin riding some wood waves on top...it's a lamp, but the form I used to press it is the story...I used two sheets of MDF glued and screwed together, cut the "S" pattern with a jigsaw, put some rail-guides on either side...heh, it was a beast, but it worked!) 15 years ago and it's still hangin' in there...yes, there was some spring-back and I used plastic resin glue. Anyhow, Maloof is the real topic...it *was* an amazing experience. He is a true patron of the arts, even has a gallery built on the grounds for showings, and he does a lot of work with up-and-coming artists in the area.

I heard those tours are hard to get into, but you never know, and there were a few cancellations the day we attended...

cg