Off to the Orange Borg I go to buy some varnish and naptha to thin it with for use as a wipe on. No cans marked varnish but lots of cans labeled Urethane. Hummmm. So off to the Non-Orange Borg to see what they have. Ha, a can of varnish. Read the back and it says 100% urethane. So I'm now assuming varnish and urethane are the same thing and poly-urethane is something else altogether. Right?? Wrong??. The brands were Olympic or Minwax. Okay to use this stuff or would I be better off buying something online like Watco or the like from one of the finishing places like homestead? Mike in Arkansas
Urethane is not varnish. Not even all varnishes are alike. What do you need vrnish for? If it;s for exterior or waterproof use, get a marine spar varnish. If not, then you can probably use Waterlox instead. It wipes on, self levels and barely needs any sanding.
urethane has no flexibility at all, so it can crack. I almost never use it.
Well, I'm doing some finish testing for a bed being built. Wipe on poly was available but most people here discourage using Polyurethane because of it's plasitic look. I have several samples of different stains on red oak topcoated with Olympic oil. I wanted to try a wipe on varnish on new samples of the two colors I like best and see if I liked that better than the oil as a topcoat. Depending on what it looks like I will need very little or a lot so I just wanted to get a small can for testing. Mike in Arkansas
There are polyurethane-based varnishes and there are varnishes with other bases and there are polyurethane-based coatings that are not varnishes. All varnish is not polyurethane and all polyurethane is not varnish.
Whether a polyurethane varnish is suited to your purpose depends on your purpose.
Also, don't forget, that it depends a lot how much you put on per layer, and how many layers you put on. I'm especially partial to shellac underneath (to seal and "pop" the grain) and poly on top in very very thin layers. You end up with a durable finish that doesn't look plasticy at all.
snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (JMWEBER987) wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@mb-m25.aol.com:
The nice thing about Waterlox is that it is an oil/varnish, sort of like Watco, only with a lot more solids (resins). So it builds much more quickly. Two or three coats on red oak, and you're ready for wax, if you want to tone down the gloss. Application is incredibly easy, and it brings a nice, mild amber tone to unstained red oak.
The nice thing about Waterlox is that it is an oil/varnish, sort of like
At the local Woodcraft store they have Waterlox samples in little pouches...should be more than enough to test on your samples. Samples of several Waterlox products are available...something like $2.00 each IIRC.
I agree that brush-on poly can look plastic-like. About the only thing I have used it on recently is a hardwood bar top. Yup, it looks like plastic.
However I have used MinWax wipe on poly and it does a pretty good job of simulating oil. Others have said that the Watco wipe-on is even better but I have not used it yet. It does provide similar iridescence (for lack of a better word) as oil, in that the grain changes its character as light and your perspective changes.
I apply it in a similar manner as oil by flooding the first coat and letting it soak. Then wiping off excess. However subsequent coats are done lightly allowing the finsh to build slowly. A durable top such as a table will require several coats. I have built some tops to 7-8 coats because the product is very thin. Use the usual process for light sanding that you would for Danish or other finishes. Probably sounds silly but I often burnish the final coat or two with a piece of brown grocery bag (probably equivalent to about 600 to 800 grit paper and always available in the pantry). The good news is you can usually sand and overcoat on 2 to 4 hour intervals depending on temp and humidity
FWIW, "Varnish" is generic term. Look it up in a dictionary.
Paint, Polyurethane, Shellac, and other top coatings are Varnishes. They can be oil, alcohol, or water based.
varnish, homogeneous solution of gum or of natural or synthetic resins in oil (oil varnish) or in a volatile solvent (spirit varnish), which dries on exposure to air, forming a thin, hard, usually glossy film. It is used for the protection or decoration of surfaces and may be transparent, translucent, or tinted. For oil varnishes a hard gum or resin, often a fossilized plant exudation such as kauri or copal, is dissolved in oil (commonly linseed oil or tung oil) and is diluted with a volatile solvent such as turpentine. Spirit varnishes are commonly made of soft resins or gums, such as shellac, dammer, mastic, or sandarac, dissolved in a volatile solvent, e.g., alcohol, benzene, acetone, or turpentine. Enamel is varnish with added pigments. Lacquer may be a cellulose derivative dissolved in a volatile solvent, or it may be a natural varnish made in the East from the sap of trees. Among the varnishes named either for their constituents or for the proposed use are japanner's gold size, cabinet, carriage, bookbinder's, patent-leather, insulating, photographic, shellac, and copal picture varnish. Varnish has been known from antiquity; the Egyptians coated mummy cases with a pastelike form made of soft resins dissolved in oil and applied when warm. Another early use was for coating oil paintings. Stradivarius and other violinmakers used a slow-drying linseed oil varnish on their instruments.varnish, homogeneous solution of gum or of natural or synthetic resins in oil (oil varnish) or in a volatile solvent (spirit varnish), which dries on exposure to air, forming a thin, hard, usually glossy film. It is used for the protection or decoration of surfaces and may be transparent, translucent, or tinted. For oil varnishes a hard gum or resin, often a fossilized plant exudation such as kauri or copal, is dissolved in oil (commonly linseed oil or tung oil) and is diluted with a volatile solvent such as turpentine. Spirit varnishes are commonly made of soft resins or gums, such as shellac, dammer, mastic, or sandarac, dissolved in a volatile solvent, e.g., alcohol, benzene, acetone, or turpentine. Enamel is varnish with added pigments. Lacquer may be a cellulose derivative dissolved in a volatile solvent, or it may be a natural varnish made in the East from the sap of trees. Among the varnishes named either for their constituents or for the proposed use are japanner's gold size, cabinet, carriage, bookbinder's, patent-leather, insulating, photographic, shellac, and copal picture varnish. Varnish has been known from antiquity; the Egyptians coated mummy cases with a pastelike form made of soft resins dissolved in oil and applied when warm. Another early use was for coating oil paintings. Stradivarius and other violinmakers used a slow-drying linseed oil varnish on their instruments.
"JMWEBER987" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@mb-m10.aol.com...
"ANY" product that is applied to cover a surface. Paint, Shellac, Polyurethane, All Varnishes. Varnish is a generic term. Varnish is not restricted to being oil, or water based.
Get yourself a copy of Bob Flexnor (sp) book "Understanding Wood Finishing." He cuts through a lot of the hype, black magic, and pure BS of wood finishing.
"Varnish" is synthetic resin in an oil-based carrier.
It was a substitute for Shellac, which is subject to the uncertainty of shipping from India--much less of a concern now than in earlier times.
Polyurethane is the most common type of resin used in the varnishes in Big Box stores.
Any film finish built up thick enough is going to look and feel like "plastic" because it essentially IS plastic. We get "plastic" look and feel from Poly partly because the brushed on product "Meets VOC Standards" by being (imo) too thick in the can and needing a bit of thinning--and partly--heck probably mostly-- 'cuz it's the first finish most of us attempt and we use it to cover up our mistakes . . :)
Disclaimer: I am NOT a coatings chemist, nor do I play one on Television. Moreover, I've never used a finish more complicated than brushed shellac.
On 01 Dec 2004 02:54:32 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (JMWEBER987) spake the words:
If you swear by Microsoft, buy ALL the brands the TV commercials tell you to buy, and spray paint on your head to cover your bald spot, go for it. You obviously won't know the difference. ;(
The reason I'm so down on poly is that very few people can put on a urethane finish without making it look like the piece was wrapped in Saran and they're prone to miniscule bubbles which make it look even worse. Abused, it's a cheesy finish which is hell to repair. The wipe-on polys are better, a step in the right direction, IMHO.
Otherwise, use a non-urethane varnish which won't have to be stripped with the most caustic aircraft paint remover known to man.
Yes, or Russ at
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Watco (very small amount of varnish), Waterlox (tung oil + more varnish), and Tried & True varnish-oil are all great varnish-based finishes. I've always loved varnish above all other finishes, despite its longer drying time, though I haven't found a straight poly-free varnish recently. I stopped looking when I found Waterlox. Since I don't do glossy finishes (rubbing the gloss down to satin with 0000 steel wool and paste wax once it's dry), I don't have to worry about slower-drying varnish gathering dust as much as gloss lovers do.
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If you accept the current generic definition of varnish, a surface finish of oil, carrier/thinner, resin, polyurethane and urethane are varnishes. The only difference being the type of resin used and the hype the advertisement people give it.
If you want to get picky about it and throw in archaic definitions the whole mess can get quite complex.
My take is that, for almost all practical purposes, it matters little which octane varnish is used. Of course my take is also to avoid varnish whenever possible and practical.
You also will find spar/marine varnish. This is a long oil varnish, a higher ration of oil to resin making for a more flexible finish that can better accommodate the movement of wood in an outdoor environment. However it is still a surface finish made up of an oil, carrier/thinner, resin.
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