Updated version of our website

[Morris Dovey]

Home page:

[1] It's worse than irritating when I have to refuse cookie and tell my browser NOT to download a plugin - just because someone wants to dazzle me with the sound quality of my 1" speakers. [2] Nice wood. I already know what wood looks like - what I really want to see is a close-up of your products. Lose the wood and let me see the products well enough that I'm sufficiently motivated to use one of your links to see more. [3] I'm over 40. My eyes aren't what they once were. A lot of the population is in the same boat (it happens to everyone sometime between the 40th and 50th birthday). I don't trust people who use tiny or otherwise difficult-to-read print because it usually means they're trying to hide something from me. This is a /fast/ turn-off. [4] Recruit the assistance of an anal-retentive English major and pick up a copy of Strunk and White's style manual at your local bookstore. It's a tiny book and if you take the trouble to read it, it'll help you to write readin'. [5] Lose the link to the page we're already seeing. It's always nice to have a home; but pretty worthless to have a link to where we already are. It's clutter and as such distracts from your message.

Shelves and shadow boxes:

[1] Again, loose the self-link. [2] Just look? At that stuff 'way off in the distance'? I see some red paint on the blue shelf; but can't tell if it was well done. If you don't let me see, I'll apply Sturgeon's Law and conclude that it's not well done (and that you don't really want me to see it well enough to reach that conclusion until you have my hard-earned cash in your PayPal account) [3] I put my trifocals on and tried entering supporting content; but it just slid off.

Planters:

[1] Self-link [3][2] Oops! Captions are reversed. [3] More tiny print. Something about pot included - cool!

Cheese and Bread Boards:

[1] Self-link [2] Don't tell me they're decorative - show me. I'm much more interested in knowing something about the materials. What kind of wood? Are they easy to clean? Are they raw wood or have you applied a finish? If so, does it pose a health risk? [3] It wouldn't accept my supporting content here, either.

Bird Feeders:

[1] Self-link [2] Is suet really peanut butter and seed? Nope (you forced me to go look it up) suet is the "hard fat deposited around the kidneys and loins of cattle and sheep: used in cooking and as a source of tallow." GW Carver and I are led to conclude that you either don't know what you're talking about or are trying to pull a fast one. [3] More small print! [4] I don't care what you say - even without chains that thing just can't any good for sitting /anywhere/! [5] No charge for the starter seed bag? Bull. If there were no charge, both the products and S&H would be less. How about if you just say that a small bag of bird seed is included?

Walking sticks:

[1] Self-link [2] Ah c'mon. I don't want to hear about your intentions; and I'll only visit again if I see something worth coming back to see again. [3] How about backing up to let me see the entire product? Then get up close enough that I can get really judgmental about the carving. If I see a particular one I really like, can I buy it?

Birdhouses:

[1] Self-link [2] About your opening salvo: if you don't chemically oxidize the copper roof then it'll look like an antique when it becomes one. Why are you talking about that today? [3] Other than the screech owl box. What kind of birds, if any, will be attracted to these birdhouses? [4] Country appeal? Eh? I'm from Iowa - where're you from again? Actually I /do/ kind of like the stone house...

The Shop:

[1] Self-link [2] Holy smokes! That guy's trying to keep track of something on TV and a photographer and - what's that thing? - OMG it's one of those things that subtracts fingers when you don't pay attention! [3] My wish for everyone is that they have a spacious shop with all kinds of good tools. I'm glad for every square inch of space that you have - but a /cluttered/ shop is a horror to me. Before I leave my shop I make myself put everything away and I clean up the day's mess. If you want to sell what you produce in the shop (and obviously you do) and if you want to show off the shop, then you need to at least move the clutter out of the camera's view for as long as it takes to shoot a picture. There's a commonly-held perception that a sloppy/cluttered shop indicates lack of concern for safety and quality.

Overall comments:

Most of the products had a non-price tag "Starting at $". Please tell me the price without introducing the inconvenience of an e-mail or phone call. If I go through that exercise and the quoted price doesn't closely match the web page price, you'll have lost any chance that I might buy or ever visit again.

I missed the address and phone, by the way. Unless you expect me to e-mail a check, some real contact information would help us both. FWIW, I won't order from a web vendor if I don't know who and where they really are.

Just realized I missed bat boxes - and then realized that none of your stuff has any measurements. Real bird people would probably care. I assume there are real bat people out there who'd be interested in the size of the bat box. I'm not a bat affectionado but confess curiosity about how big a box would be needed to hold

100+ live bats who'd enter voluntarily.

[Rich]

Now thats an opinion. I like that. I will get in there and change or try to rather, the wolf picture. I did change the music and cursor trails so that it is only on the first page.Also why the first page is a short one. I will work more on the site. Thanks Again

Rich

[Michael Baglio]

Someone who's apparently taken more time to read the groups charter, guidelines and faq than you have.

Loosen up the suspenders on your lederhosen there Skippy, you're going to hurt youself. An asshole would have just reported a spammer to his ISP. Instead, several of us here, (myself included), gave constructive criticism as was asked for. If you had a clue about the purpose of this group and what it generally frowns on, you'd realize what a service that was to the OP.

Since the OP is busy justifying what he continues to do instead of initiating any actual changes in his website, one can only conclude that his _real_ motive here is to spam, not improve. So, the courteous response he initially got will/has turned.

Your post stinks of a self-absorbed whiner who's above any set of guidelines that might limit his doing whatever he wants in a newsgroup. A classic action from one who obviously thinks its a "free" usenet and anything goes. Rules don't apply to you, right? Anything you judge as against what you _personally_ think usenet ought to be like isn't acceptable at all, is it? Screw the conventions of usenet, you're above them...

Yeah. Don't ya just?

Michael

[Rick Chamberlain]

Amazing. 99% of the people tell you that your site would be better off without ANY music or mouse trails, yet you still keep them.

Good thing we're not your customer base, or you'd be out of business soon.

Here's a regurgitated tip for you - if you want a professional looking site to conduct e-business, then take a look at some real sites, like

It's well organized, clean, and makes it easy to do business with them.

Good luck.

[Mark and Kim Smith]

Yup! When looking at products, that's one of the first things I do. Head to the "about" page to look at a physical address. First, to see if it might be local. Second, to know that this is an actual business and not something "fly-by-night". Plus, it gives you a place to throw rocks at when everything goes wrong!

[Michael Baglio]

Michael, actually.

My mistake. It just really resembles a mess in the picture. It must be one of those "camera adds 10 pounds" things.

You mistook my question. I didn't ask what they were for, I asked why are they in the photo? If you take a photo of your living room, don't you put the vacuum cleaner away first? I don't _know_ since I'm not there, but it sure appears as if you just put whatever photo you had available on your website, rather than re-taking one specifically aimed at marketing your workplace.

There's no reason to explain it at all. Having towels hanging over your tools like used bar rags will tell your potential customers everything they need to know about the level of your commitment to producing a quality product. There's no chance at all that they'll see that photo and think that the effort you put into the stuff you want them to buy is on the same par with the effort you put into showing your shop off in it's best light. (Geez, man do ya get it yet?)

Who cares? You're not the customer.

Haven't you read _any_thing _any_one's posted in response to your request? You're site doesn't appeal even to us hairy-backed, chest-beating, smelly-armpitted men. You think you're scoring some style points with the women on this group? If you are then PLEASE don't blow what little chance you have by saying something totally sexist and apish.

Oh damn, you did it anyway. GREAT marketing move there.

Don't tell Ralph Lauren, he thinks he's selling millions of those POLO shirts men don't like shopping for. He doesn't realize you're snagging 'em all at the thrift store for shop rags.

Michael

[gabriel]

Whatever, I'm done with you. Chatting with you is not worth my time, I didn't even read your message, that's how much I value whatever you have to say...

[Rich]

Actually, I don't think it was CONSTRUCTIVE I think it was mean and belittleing. Although, some people did give good suggestions others were just plain COLDHEARTED. THis is not a business, it is a hobby, one that I hope to use to make enough money to buy some more equipment to better my projects. Maybe then I can become OLD and Cranky like some people in here. No offense, but I came here to learn and I got good information and when I tried to show off some of the things that you guys are teaching, I get nothing but mean misguided opinions. I hope that when I get old I stay regular and don't get as constipated as some people here. I still hope to learn from you guys as woodworkers although I don't expect to learn compassion!

Rich

[gabriel]

Twit filter, man, twit filter... Figure out how to use it on your reader. With newsreaders, as in real life, you can choose who you listen to.

Ain't no use listening to someone always feeding you crap and turning a good day into a bad one.

[J T]

Wed, Feb 25, 2004, 3:48pm (EST+5) [e-mail] (gabriel) puts out: Rich, don't let these guys get to you. It's waaay to easy to be an asshole when you're not in front of the people whose work you're putting down. When any of these insensitive fools make their own web site and have the balls to point it out for critique, then will they even be at your level.

Basically, I don't say a thing here I wouldn't say to someone's face.

I'm not an asshole, I'm not insensitive, and I'm not a fool, so it's pretty obvious you weren't referring to me. I do have a website. Anyone can critique it that wants. But note, on the first page, it does state that if you're too tight-assed to dance, you probably won't like it there. And, at the start of the contents, there is also a warning. Finally, last, but not least, I put it up for my benefit, so I really don't give a rat's rosy red rectum if people care for it, or not; however, anyone is welcome to make use of the links and info there. It's also ot a commercial site, which makes a huge difference.

Clemenceau supposedly said, "War is too important a matter to be left to the military". If this is so, it is then obvious that peace is too precious to be left to politicians.

Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT Web Page Update 28 Feb 2004. Some tunes I like.

[Michael Baglio]

That's right. Constructive and cold-hearted. Welcome to the business world. You want warm fuzzies, get your web-business marketing advice from your mommy. "Why Ritchie, that's beayuuuutiful! And wolf-howling noises! Aren't _you_ the clever boy!!! "

Stop whining.

As soon as you put your stuff up for sale to the public, it's a business. Grow up and stop whining.

Which _might_ happen if you stop getting offended when people criticise your site, and start making the suggested changes. Stop whining.

Classic. _You_ get all the free advice, _we're_ mean. Stop whining.

You got a lot to learn about compassion. Go read Matthew 7, verse 6. Try not to get snot on the page.

Michael

[Rich]

OH Geeze.......

[J T]

Wed, Feb 25, 2004, 6:57pm (EST+5) [e-mail] (Rich) pouts: Actually, I don't think it was CONSTRUCTIVE I think it was mean and belittleing.

Time you learned then, if you don't want to hear the answer, don't ask the question. I think all the reponses were constructive, and none of them mean and/or belittleing.

Although, some people did give good suggestions others were just plain COLDHEARTED.

I don't think any of the responses were coldhearted. Probably just not as sweet as you would have wanted. Remember, you asked.

THis is not a business,

If you're selling, it's a business.

No offense,

But, I'm sure some people were offended by your response. I wasn't particularly, but sure can understand why some would be.

I hope that when I get old I stay regular and don't get as constipated as some people here.

Then just get a colon resection, you'll be regular like you won't believe. LMAO

JOAT Georges Clemenceau supposedly said, "War is too important a matter to be left to the military". If this is so, it is then obvious that peace is too precious to be left to politicians.

Life just ain't life without good music. - JOAT Web Page Update 28 Feb 2004. Some tunes I like.

[Mike Patterson]

No cursor text

Retake pictures without the sofa in the background. Carpet is -almost- tolerable, but a sofa?

If you're going to sell these items, you want them to look as good as possible. Take the pictures under controlled lighting, no flash, and experiment until it looks -good-. Not just "OK", but GOOD. IT can be done, and you can do it, so why not give yourself the best chance?

Turn off the date/time on the camera.

Set up a table against a solid colored wall with a solid colored tablecloth, preferably neutral colors unless you -want- contrast. Put items on table, arrange in pleasing manner.

Include something to indicate scale. A book on the shelf, a feeder hanging on a tree, a bun and knife on the breadboard, a person holding a walking stick. Is that bat box 12 inches tall or 36 inches tall?

Take pictures from different angles, heights, distances, light levels. You can use lamps and drop lights. No direct flash! It glares off painted surfaces.

Now take some time to sort out the good shots from the so-so shots. BE RUTHLESS. Make notes and retake if necessary.

If you are like my darling wife and just cannot take a decent picture to save your life, pay a local pro. Hey, no one can do everything, right?

How do I (Joe Customer) order your products?

Sorry this got so long, just trying to help.

Mike Patterson Please remove the spamtrap to email me.

[Doug Miller]

That's too bad. You might have learned something. My guess is that you are, or soon will be, in more killfiles than Mr. Baglio is. But that's just MHO.

-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

For a copy of my TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter, send email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com

[Rich]

Now thats what I call constructive criticism! Not only did it show me where corrections can be made but it also showed how without being belittleing. Thanks Mike, I will work on it and get some better pictures in there. The music and cursor text will go to the wayside. I tried like heck to get the wolf sizing better but I couldn't get it to work. I have been fuming over some of the posts, guess I took it to heart which I shouldn't have but I'm only human.Thats a great idea about showing scale in the pictures and how to accomplish that. Well, thanks again and I'll work on it.

Rich

[Doug Miller]

Apparently you're operating with a different set of definitions, such as CONSTRUCTIVE = agreeable to you COLDHEARTED = telling you that something that sucks, sucks.

You *asked* for opinions, remember? You got them, you didn't like them, and now you're crying about it. If all you wanted was unconditional approval, you should've asked your Mom. If you don't want honest opinions, or can't handle it when you get them, don't ask.

When I was a kid, my Dad told me, over and over, "Be careful what you ask for. You might get it."

Words to take to heart.

If you think that insulting us is going to improve your reception here... you might want to think again.

Apparently in your dictionary, "misguided" means "doesn't match your opinions".

I wonder how many killfiles you've been added to today...

-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

For a copy of my TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter, send email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com

[Lawrence L'Hote]

FWIW, over on rec.photo.digital posters ask for critiques of their pictures and, generally, get overwhelmed with rude and useless criticism. I, for one, say before you tell me my dog can't hunt worth a sh-- show me what yours can do. Now while I'm thinking about it, I need to update my site(s)

Larry

[Michael Baglio]

snip...

Hmmm... this is a newsgroup first. I just agreed with everything you said. I'd better go take something.

Michael

[Doug Miller]

Lose the mouse trail. Lose the music. Everywhere. ESPECIALLY on your first page! That's the *worst* place you could possibly put that junk: if you have a bunch of annoying crap on your first page... nobody's gonna look at the *rest* of the pages! Don't you understand that?

How many people have to tell you that that stuff is annoying, before you will listen? We're not trying to pick on you, we're just telling you the truth. It's cutesy. Web novices just *love* that kind of cutesy stuff. But it's annoying. *Nobody* wants to look at a page with that stuff on it, except maybe the guy that designed it.

News Flash, Rich -- if you're trying to attract customers, you want a web site that's attractive to the *customers*. Not to you. Nobody cares if you like the site. That's not what attracts and retains customers.

Sheesh.

-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

For a copy of my TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter, send email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com