undermount slide question

I have never worked with undermount slides (ball bearing type).
I have a dresser that I keep my hand planes in. The drawer has become so heavy it is a bear to move, and it tips out when pulled all the way. I don't have enough side clearance to use side mounted, without taking the drawer apart and rebuilding it.
I want to add undermount slides, but I remember reading here that they need to be bought ahead of the build. What makes them that finicky. Is there any type of slide that will do better in an existing drawer. I would like to be able to pull full extension without the drawer falling out...
My other option is to break the drawer apart and narrow it so full extension side slides work... too much work, right now (and I might lose one handplane from that drawer). would rather work on my other project.
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Jeff

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On 2/10/2013 10:11 AM, woodchucker wrote:

Precise _drawer dimensions_ are actually the tail that wags the door with the type of undermount drawer slides you are contemplating.
Typically you need a precise 1/2" between the bottom of the drawer sides, and drawer bottom to use them, as well as precise side, bottom and top clearances, depending upon make and model.
That said, and if you don't want to use a handmade wooden drawer slide solution, like a dovetail slide, or a rail type solution on the drawer/cab sides; an alternate solution may be to consider a sidemount type drawer slides specifically made for underneath the drawer mounting, as you can see here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopSBJ_Desk201102#5753241175864122418
I don't recall if they made a full extension for this purpose (it may not be wise, depending upon drawer weight), but some compromise may be necessary to get the job done.
In the event you don't have the height clearance to do this, it is usually much easier to cut the drawer height down, than either taking it apart, or building a new drawer. DAMHIKT
If you need more information on this particular slide model that I used, reply back and I'll dig it up.
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On 2/10/2013 1:06 PM, Swingman wrote:

https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopSBJ_Desk201102#5753241175864122418

Thanks, sounds like rebuilding the drawer is my best option. Even dovetailed wooden slides won't get me full extention.
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On 2/10/2013 12:33 PM, woodchucker wrote:

I've taken regular side-mount drawer slides and mounted them on flat on drawer bottoms w/ reasonable success--I've got the printer/copier on them on a pullout and have had it for 10+ years and works just fine. I'd not put a 100-lb weight on it but they hold 25 or so just fine.
How heavy _is_ this drawer and what dimensions?
Accuride makes an undermount that only requires 3/8" between drawer bottom and mount; they are only 3/4 extension and rated at 35 lb but you can increase both effectively by using three instead of two for load and if you have some extra clearance you can use a longer slide than the actual drawer depth to fake the full (or nearly) extension...
For an even easier alternative, look at adding a pressure-sensitive strip of UHMD plastic on the drawer bottom or supports--it'll glide very easily on it and not wear and you can fix the tipout problem by adding an upper guide rail for the drawer edge to run on analagously to the bottom.
Or, you can use a regular dado and wide spline similar to what a dovetail slide would be on the two sides and it can also have the UHMD if need some extra friction-relief (altho I'd wager w/ hard maple or the like finished very well it would slide just fine w/o)...
There's always ways... :)
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On 2/10/2013 2:46 PM, dpb wrote:

It is a very big drawer, old style. Off hand I would say more than 24 wide and probably close to 18 deep.
I already tried the uhmw strips on the frame. Still too heavy, and the draw still tips out even with a rub strip on the top of the drawer top.
I would say its probably about 40-60 lbs, somewhere in there.
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On 2/10/2013 2:29 PM, woodchucker wrote:

Pictures' worth a thousand words ...
That said, and considering that you really want a full extension drawer, and it is not all that difficult to build a drawer to spec, sounds like a new drawer is your best bet.
1. Decide upon the drawer style and joinery.
2. Choose, and insure the slides that will do what you want are readily available; and either buy them first with the spec sheet intact, or go to the manufacturer's site and download them.
3. Then build you a custom drawer dimensioned to fit into the existing opening, with the drawers slide parameters taken into account.
If you can build cabinets around drawers, it is even easier to build vice versa:
https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopRetrofit2011#5612654136297672034
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On 2/10/2013 4:20 PM, Swingman wrote:

https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopRetrofit2011#5612654136297672034

Uploaded to http://imgur.com/a/YbWt2#2 The left side has 3/16 clearance, barely. Right side 1/2 (face frame) need to build out to face frame. The drawer is 28 wide by 18deep. I would probably try rebuilding this drawer. its just a matter of taking the hide glue apart and cutting new dovetails once I narrow the rabbet on the front drawer face.
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On 2/10/2013 4:20 PM, Swingman wrote:

https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopRetrofit2011#5612654136297672034

Uploaded to http://imgur.com/a/YbWt2#2 The left side has 3/16 clearance, barely. Right side 1/2 (face frame) need to build out to face frame. The drawer is 28 wide by 18deep. I would probably try rebuilding this drawer. its just a matter of taking the hide glue apart and cutting new dovetails once I narrow the rabbet on the front drawer face.
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Looks like both sides are easily shimmed, the FF side thusly, with a typical modern undermount slide and a plywood shim:
https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopDrawerSlideJig (Last photo)
The 3/16" side is a walk in the park with the Lee Valley or Rockler poly shims. All you need now is the required bottom space where the drawer sits on the slide mechanism (most of these slides require two 1/4" holes in the drawer back for clips, and a maximum height to cut to for the drawer slides and back.
Using the old drawer material is smart move, if you can.
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On 2/10/2013 7:28 PM, Swingman wrote:

So just to clarify , the undermount will give me full extension? And be able to hold that load? Or am I looking at 3/4 extension? I have the space under, I have 1/2 inch under, I might have to trim the sides at the bottom for clearance...
already have the poly shims.. they are handy, just don't have the undermounts...
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On 2/10/2013 6:44 PM, woodchucker wrote:

Absolutely, it that's what you order.

These are what I use ... they have a 75lb load rating,but KV also has full extension undermounts with 100le rating:
http://quikdrawers.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id896
Be particular about your drawer side thickness when ordering, it is MOST important.
This is the spec sheet for MuV, for 1/2 to 5/8 drawer sides, which looks like what you have.
http://quikdrawers.com/Product_Instructions/kvmuv_Installation.pdf
Look around for other brands ... For literally hundreds of drawers, I have used Blum's blumotion, Hittich, and KV's (both MuV and MUV34), and prefer the KV's for being less finicky about fitting the drawer to the opening and ease of installation.
You must be precise with the drawer dimensions, and in particular, the holes in the rear where the slide tabs lock into the drawer back.
You can also install them in your cabinet without shims, and with KV's rear mounting brackets if your cabinet back is thick enough to hold screws well.
KV also sells a handy jig for marking holes in the bavk and mounting the front clips, but for just one drawer you won't need that expense.
If you get that far, let me know before you drill the back holes and I'll show you a couple of tricks to get them located correctly.
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On 2/10/2013 9:06 PM, Swingman wrote:

Didn't see your response before I ordered. I wanted some vbelts, rockler has a sale for the red twist lock belts $19, so I added a blum undermount. Was hoping they had a 16" but didn't, 15 and 18. The 18 won't fit. I over sized the drawer, the actual inside w/o the drawer front was 17 1/4.. so the 18 wouldn't fit.
I ordered http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page !10 thinking that the drawings looked about right.
Appreciate your help. Would love to not worry about pulling this heavy draw too far and having it drop the the ground.
My bottom draw is loaded with files of all sorts, and is even heavier. But lets face it, if that drops to the floor who cares, its the bottom drawer and files are (well files). I don't use them often. My planes I use all the time, so they are the top drawer... And are now very valuable to me.
Thanks again.
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woodchucker wrote:

That's not a drawer, it's a bin :)

You can make drawers without mechanical slides that are virtually full extension and which won't tip out by making the drawer back higher than the case opening. The drawer will still tip a bit but it won't come out because it is held there by the face frame and/or kick.
So how do you get the drawer in in the first place? By flaring up the drawer runner grooves at the back and rounding the case runners at the front bottom. Sort of like a rule joint. Then, to get the drawer in, angle it up, slide the back past the face frame, lower the drawer.
As to sliding ease, what is your drawer sliding on now? The bottom? edges of sides? And in the case? Materials?
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On 2/11/2013 6:07 AM, dadiOH wrote:

3 points of contact. drawer sides, and middle runner. Running the drawer slides on UHMW ... Still heavy.
Well, ordered the slides we'll see how it goes. Worst case scenario, I would demo the one side and narrow the drawer on that side. Then put full extension side mounted slides on... I value these planes... The more I use the the more I realize how nice they are. My Lie Nielsen block and LeeValley's Jack are nice, but I am appreciating the O1 steel more and more. I can put a finer edge on them then the A1... and damn if they don't cut nice. I am about to order a new blade for My Veritas low angle jack. Going back to O1. I have 2 A1's and rebuilding the old planes has me realizing what I have been missing.
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Depends on the actual construction of the frame/carcass. Don't chop into your cabinets yet! I have modified drawers to work easily with side mounted slides by carefully cutting into the stiles to inlet the slide. The drawers weren't that tight as they slid wood on wood, and I only mortised in about 1/8" on both sides with the 3/8" slides. NO drawer mods involved at all. Worked like a champ and only took a few minutes and the face of the drawer covered the mortised slides, although no one noticed them. Obviously.... these were the old frame/ carcass construction, not euro stuff. And of course, that option would be dictated by clearance on your actual piece. But I bet if it clears now you could modify the cabinet with no problem.
On the topic of drawer slides, I did this for a customer a couple of years ago:
http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u563/RobertLWitte/ FullDrawerExt01_zps67ae3c21.jpg
The drawer actually had a 2 - 3 more inches of extension, but I took this a couple of years ago to show a friend of mine what I was talking about, not to show how far the drawer box would go from the cabinet. The drawer was 30" across and 24" front to back, and about 12" deep. As dadiOH says, this is a bin, not a drawer. The hardware is rated at 150#, and I think it is an Accuride product. (Got it from a cab building friend of mine as he couldn't use one that that kind if travel.) It is a very well made slide that is all ball bearing with two courses, one front and one back with plenty of "bearings".
This was a test for me and it worked out great. The drawer is suspended at the front and the back, where I put a cleat the length of the inside of the back. I used the level to verify plumb and level on the cabinet face, found it to be close, so I used the level to establish the location of the back of the slide. When I attached the slide on the level marks made on the cleat and tested for fit and ease of travel, thanks to the level it was great. A minor adjustment (the full extension magnifies any small problem you wouldn't see with a 3/4 length pull) and it was nearly perfect.
The wood bar across the inside of the drawer serves two functions. It stiffened the drawer quite a bit and added a lot of interior strength. Second, the drawer had a large bulge in the bottom from years of being over loaded. The bar allowed me to pick up the bulge and glue/screw the bottom back to straight. It is offset slightly more towards the front to confirm to the worst part of the bulging bottom, but also to give more strength to an area that will see the most weight.
There are extra screws in the slide attached to the drawer as I drilled a few more each side. At the reinforcing bar, there is a larger hole to accommodate a larger screw that goes from the slide, through the side of the drawer and into the reinforcing bar.
This is actually at my sister's house and I know she uses it a lot. It holds heavy pans, her dutch over, pyrex cooking pans and other heavy things she is afraid to put too high up. It carries about 50 or so pounds in it with no problems. And since she thinks the drawer was designed for complete full extension, what you see is exactly how she uses it.
The "floating drawer" has become quite a conversation piece with her DIY friends. I don't if any have tried it, but unless the know establish the slide installations with a level, they would really be up against it.
Robert
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Sorry about that...
Posted the pic the way I do on a private forum which is different from here. This is the picture I wanted up:
http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u563/RobertLWitte/FullDrawerExt01_zps67ae3c21.jpg
Robert
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Your over travel slides remind me of our vegetable bin. It was a pretty good idea that got screwed up but fixed but which wound up of not much value.
When we moved to Florida we bought 10 acres and built a house. Ar the time, my wife professed an interest in vegetable gardening. Anticipating tons of tomatoes, a plentitude of peas, carrots by the carload, etc. I figured we'd need a place to keep them and I worked out a bin for the kitchen which I was building.
What I wound up with was a bin roughly 16" wide, 22-24" high and counter depth. There were three sections in it, one above another, all of equal height; the top section was fixed and part of the frame work; the other two were accessed by sliding them out to the side. The bottoms of all bins were closely spaced dowels, the sides had slots; all that was to allow some air flow around the goodies.
When I installed it, I quickly noticed a problem: even though the slides were full extension, there wasn't enough extension to allow the lateral movement of the bottom sections to pass the adjacent door of another bin in the same cabinet section. Bummer! Had I thought of that, I could easily made the laterally moving bins less deep (into the cabinet). But I hadn't.
I knew of over travel slides but had never seen or used them. Google did not exist, I knew nothing of the internet, didn't even have a PC so I checked local hardware stores. Not to be found. I suppose I could have special ordered a pair but that would mean I'd have to find an employee who knew what I was talking about. It would also mean waiting. I wanted to do neither so I wound up buying a pair of full extension slides that were a couple of inches longer than the cabinet is deep.
Of course, the longer slides wouldn't fit in the cabinet so I did what any right thinking DIYer would do: I punched holes through the drywall behind the cabinet and let the excess slide live in the wall cavity. Fortunately - *VERY* fortunately - there were no studs in the way.
Problem solved, new problem...wife eschewed any interest in vegetable gardening. Well, that really isn't a problem, just means that the laterally moving sections get little to zero use. Top one stores some potatoes, onions, tomatoes, garlic; all store bought.
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y

y

ind

ely -

That's hilarious! Now you sound like a contractor!

rally

Had a couple of those "why, if only I had this" or "if you would make this for me I would (fill in blank here) projects. Not so much anymore as I will make sure promises are kept along with the good intentions. It sure cut down on my "honey do" list.
Robert
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Especially if he used the first, and biggest, hammer he could find!
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