TS Setup/alignment questions

[bridger]

OH SHIT! DUCK AND COVER! RUN! RUN!

[George]

Ayup. One will go, next won't, so the difference is how far. Not that how far is terribly important. It's the outcome, not the measurement.

[Luigi Zanasi]

On 25 Mar 2005 12:51:05 -0800, [e-mail] scribbled:

Ed is showing admirable restraint here. If you want to know why I say that (or the context to Bridgers's post), check out the thread associated with this innocent post by charlie b:

I can figure out, Steve Strickland's method is as in the following summary of the thread (quoting from the anti-faq):

3.1 HOW DO I ALIGN MY TABLESAW You first need to find the null axis of the warp or centroid of the cycloid of rotation. Note that the cycloid is adibiatic or asymptotically free. Be careful not to introduce a modulus of coefficients of dynamic dependant variables. Shag carpet works best 'cause it minimizes the saggita on your straightedge. You can use interference fringes or an auto-collimator. This will allow you to adjust your table saw to make cuts accurate to a gazillionth of an inch.

Or you can use a dial indicator on a stick that fits in your mitre (miter, Floyd) gauge (gage, Keeter) slot.

Luigi Who's been meaning to buy the TS-Aligner for a few years now. Replace "nonet" with "yukonomics" for real email address

[ejb]

I think you guys have missed a couple of things I said so I'll explain in more detail.

Aligning a tablesaw doesn't involve figuring out which feeler gage fits into a single gap and which does not. There are two gaps and the goal is to make them equal. So, the objective is to find one feeler gage that fits the same in both gaps.

In addition, I said the blade is flexible. It acts like a spring. As you apply force to a spring, resistance starts at zero and rapidly increases to a specific level. The resistance stays at that fixed level over a certain distance of movement. Then the resistance increases exponentially. Translated: as you push your feeler gage into the both gaps, the force could "feel" the same but the actual distance might not be. The trick to obtaining accurate results with feeler gages is to stay out of that range of motion where the force is constant. You can do this with your "go/no-go" technique. But, that isn't going to be practical in the 0.001" range unless you have a feeler gage set with 0.001" increments and your reference has nice, square, crisp edges. A sloppy reference with rounded edges and angled ends will steer you into the constant force range of the springy blade.

As I said, some people are pretty good at it. I'm not. And, to be honest with you, I have no interest in developing skills for subjective methods when an objective instrument (dial indicator) is faster, easier, more reliable, and cheaper. Yes, cheaper! Investing in a trustworthy set of feeler gages (not the $2.00 el-cheapo spark plug set at the local auto parts store) and a decent ground steel reference will cost many times more than a reliable dial indicator. What I really don't understand is why some people have such a fear of dial indicators that they will spend so much time and money to avoid them and then go out of their way to dissuade others from using them too.

Ed Bennett [e-mail]

of the TS-Aligner!

George wrote:

[George]

The objective is to produce consistent results. Doesn't, never has required jazzbo instruments to do so. If it's off, it's corrected.

Knowing _how far_ is as useless as the proverbial porcine mammaries. If you are incapable of detecting when a gage touches a piece of metal, well and good. The remainder, who are fully capable of detecting it, and only marginally interested in the magnitude of the difference, can and will survive.

Get over it.

[Doug Miller]

I don't anyone ever saying that it did.

I *do* recall Ed saying, several times, that using a dial indicator makes it

*easier* to do so.

Having done it both ways myself - with feeler gauges, and with a dial indicator attached to a TS-Aligner Jr - I have to agree with Ed. Using his jazzbo gizmo makes it a boatload easier.

-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

[Unisaw A-100]

Ditto what Doug said but I'd substitute boat load for shit load or at least butt load.

UA100

[ejb]

George, I think that you should give this some more thought. What if it's splintery when cutting from both sides? Are you going to try and ajdust it so that it's equally splintery? Sounds pretty subjective to me. And what about the cost of keeping a bunch of luan around for "alignment" purposes? Personally, I haven't had any of this stuff in my shop for more than a decade. I have no desire to buy any and if it cost me more than a couple of bucks then I might as well have bought a dial indicator (which would be much more useful).

What makes you so averse to using a dial indicator?

Ed Bennett [e-mail]

of the TS-Aligner!

George wrote:

mechanical

[George]

Sounds like you're thinking somewhere but between your ears.

Or are you really as obtuse as you're trying to seem?

[Duane Bozarth]

Just check the signature and all is explained... :)

[ejb]

Well George, you proposed the "luan" method so it naturally follows that you're the one to answer questions about it. If you don't think that the sceneario is likely (or even possible), then say so. Avoiding the issue with personal insults doesn't bode well for your credibility. Perhaps now would be a good time to reveal if you've ever even tried to align a saw using this "luan" test (and how much wood got trashed in the process).

On the topic of being "obtuse", what makes you so afraid of using a dial indicator? What compells you to speak out against such instruments and the people who use them? I think that's what this whole thing is about. I've admitted over and over again that the traditional methods do work and some poeple are pretty good at them but I just don't like them (because they involve subjective judgement). How about a concession from you stating that dial indicators can be used successfully to align a saw but you just don't like using them (for whatever reason).

Maybe the location of my thinking has nothing to do with how it sounds to your ears.

Ed Bennett [e-mail]

of the TS-Aligner!

George wrote:

[DonkeyHody]

I don't usually jump into other people's fights, but I have something to add.

I managed for many years to adjust my table saw to an acceptable level of accuracy without buying a dial indicator. At first, if it would cut wood without spitting it back at me, all was well. But as my skills grew, so did my need for more precision. Those burn marks on the edges just weren't acceptable anymore. I never tried the "luan method", but I tried most every other technique mentioned and even some that are not. I substituted a dial caliper for a dial indicator and got somewhat better results.

Finally, this past Christmas, SWMBO sprung for the TS-Aligner Jr. and the 45 degree angle block to go with it. What a quantum leap forward! With the TS-Aligner Jr. I was able to check everything about my saw within an hour. I found that my TABLE was tilted about 60 thou front-to-back. A couple of washers under the table and I no longer get burn marks when I tilt the blade.

Now, maybe you can come up with some other gadget that will measure accurately enough, exactly the same vertical distance from the table, to uncover that problem, but I can't, and I'm an engineer.

After I got my table saw tuned up, I went on to my jointer, planer and compound miter saw. Guess what? My boards are smoother because my planer blades are the same height. My miters fit better because my miter saw was a little off. And I enjoy my time in the shop a little more as a result.

If you don't think Ed's gadget is worth the money, don't buy one. But I'm sure glad I did.

DonkeyHody "We should be careful to get out of an experience only the wisdom that is in it - and stop there; lest we be like the cat that sits down on a hot stove-lid. She will never sit down on a hot stove-lid again---and that is well; but also she will never sit down on a cold one anymore." - Mark Twain

[Unisaw A-100]

Geez Ed, I'm a big fan of yours butcha gotta quit trying reason with the trolls.

UA100

[Juergen Hannappel]

[...]

What, the least possible improvement?

[Doug Miller]

You'd be much more convincing, George, if you'd actually answer Ed's questions and attempt to rebut his points. When the best you can do is to reply to a reasoned (and reasonable) post with personal abuse, you sound like a gasbag with an agenda instead of a person with a purpose for his actions.

-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

[George]

Well, Doug, while I am foolish enough to presume some intelligence on the part of most posters, answering their question rather than posing and answering mine, I will make an exception in your case, given your record.

Ed has an agenda, and his thoughts, or lack of same, seem to spring from the vicinity of his wallet. I stated from the beginning that I was a result-oriented woodworker, not a gadget man, and have offered up three alternatives to the gadget, designed to determine direction, not distance, that being essentially worthless information, lacking some similarly calibrated device with which to make the compensation. You might try actually reading the posts before you flap your digital gums - a weakness I have noticed in you.

If you are unable to use a simple feeler gage to determine touch/no touch as Ed pretends, I suggest both of you do everything in your power to avoid tailed tools and sharp edges. Beyond that, I will also suggest that you are incapable of using his device properly, as it does require some dexterity.

I don't think anyone is that clumsy or that obtuse, therefore I suspect Ed is just being a PITA. I know you are.

[ejb]

You're probably right. I really would like to understand why some people have a "dial-indicator phobia". Obviously, George is severely afflicted. After reading through it several times, his explanation to Doug still sounds like nonsense:

"...three alternatives to the gadget, designed to determine direction, not distance, that being essentially worthless information, lacking some similarly calibrated device with which to make the compensation."

The best I can figure is that George thinks that a dial indicator is only good for determining "direction, not distance." Or, is it the three alternatives which are only good at direction? Is George calling something worthless or is he saying that I'm calling something worthless? Nothing like a good run-on sentance with to really confuse everyone!

Just in case... I didn't call any of the methods George presented "worthless". I didn't tell anyone not to use them. All I said was the

*I* don't like them and I explained exactly why. George has yet to explain exactly why he doesn't like dial indicators.

Ed Bennett [e-mail]

of the TS-Aligner!

Unisaw A-100 wrote:

[Unisaw A-100]

Ed Bennett:

Yeah I had a similar run in with him a while back over band saw alignment. I was making a case for wheels not needing to be "exactly" (dead nuts David) coplanar. George came out of left field with some gibberish not even having anything to do with coplanar.

I had the damnest time trying to figure out what point he was making. I eventually gave up.

UA100

[George]

Memories differ. Your assertion was that coplanarity was unimportant. Mine that setting up initial coplanarity gave full range of adjustment for subsequent blade tracking. Look it up, but I have a feeling you won't. You didn't seem to comprehend much then, either.

If ever there was a case of measure with a micrometer and cut with a meat axe, it's Ed's toy. "It's .003 off to the left, so how many times do I need to hit the rear trunnion bolt with this mallet for .003?"

[Doug Miller]

And how does that differ in *any* respect from making the same measurement with feeler gauges?

The tools and methods used to make the measurement are irrelevant to the corrective action required: it's *still* three-thou off, and you *still* need to either adjust it, or ignore it.

All that Ed, and anyone else in the dial indicator camp, have ever claimed is that obtaining accurate measurements is easier and faster with a dial indicator. And as Ed points out, there's very little difference in price between a decent set of feeler gauges and a basic ID. Plus, the DI has many other uses besides.

You still haven't explained why you're so opposed to using a DI.

-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?