Trouble setting up new table saw

[Dan]

Yeah, right.

You've got to be kidding me.

[Swingman]

Actually, you're kidding yourself if you think it was in reference to you. Nonetheless, I'm indeed sorry that you took it that way.

[Swingman]

Here ya go, Bubba:

read it and weep.

Nope, as I said, and as you see from the above, you were actually kidding yourself.

[Swingman]

Well, Ed ... and since you haven't noticed, that pretty well sums up my point all along about "making sawdust". :)

Nor will you get an argument from me on that score ... and we also need to keep in mind that the vast majority of woodworkers, even with today's technology, are doing excellent work without a TS saw capable of being aligned, or maintaining alignment, to that thousandths of a gnats ass.

Rarely happens to those who don't fixate on alignment at the exclusion of working wood :)

FWIW, my table saw is aligned to ".003" all around, which has pretty much always been proven by the end product ... you just provided the verification ... thanks, again! :)

[Dan]

"the" many times in his posts. Does that mean every time you use that word it's in reference to Ed? I originated a post about measurements, and it was obviously my concerns about them which you were characterizing as "OCD". Your comment in no way implies anything else. Instead of being an adult and apologizing, you're trotting out this bullshit.

PLONK, mallethead.

[Lee Michaels]

"Dan" babbled some nonsense and plonked

I always wonder about these guys. They get all upset about a light hearted remark. And then shut themselves off from the real resources of the newsgroup.

I am not going to defend swingman. Not only did he not do anything, I can't imagine anybody taking Dan seriously. And I am sure the Mr Bennet would have found Mr Swingman's comment to be funny.

This is a classic example of style over substance. Or political correctness run amok. OCD is a term that many overacheivers use to describe themselves. It is not the insult that some folks imagine. Ed Bennet used it to describe himself.

Is it OK for Ed to characterize himself in this fashion? If so, are others guilty of some kinda cosmic trangression if they describe Ed in the same fashion?

Maybe it is a joke thing. The Joke Police want to outlaw all humor. A joke was made. Most of us laughed. Somebody went nuts and imagined all kinds of horrors because we commited a cardinal sin of laughing at a joke. Apparently this guy suffers from Humor Impairment Syndrome.

I have a simple criteria for reading posts. Are they of value to me? Are they educational? Are they enjoyable? Most of the folks who post good things on this forum are also blessed with a sense of humor. It makes this a fun place.

[Frank Drackman]

Wow, do you usually make friends this easily?

[Ed Bennett]

I think he just got fed up with all the mocking taunts. Dan had a real problem with real consequences and he was looking for real answers. Emotocons should be used to indicate the meaning behind the statement, not as a license to belittle someone.

I don't think Dan shut himself off from "real" resources. After all, swingman didn't actually offer a solution to the problem, just a way to live with it. Which is pretty surprising given that he owns such an expensive tablesaw, a good alignment tool, and has 30 years of experience.

I'm certainly not going to defend swingman either. I think he should have a lot more to offer than a bunch of belittling taunts. Just look at his web site. Clearly, he shouldn't need to put others down in order to feel good about himself.

Taken by itself, I don't think the OCD comment is the problem. But, conbined with all the other comments (including the "your apology is accepted") it is clearly the last straw in a couple of bales worth of demeaning statements.

I think so.

Nope. I think we all want the manufacturers of our tools to be obsessed with quality and accuracy. And, I think the finest woodworking comes from people who are obsessed with the details. So, I'm always surprised to hear some self proclaimed expert making fun of detail oriented people. It makes me think twice about their "expertise".

Well, while I don't mind being characterized as obsessive and compulsive when it comes to quality and accuracy, I do mind having my products described as the biggest waste of time for anal woodworkers. It mocks me, my products, and my customers. And, making fun of the real solution to Dan's problem is pretty annoying too.

An alalogy might help. What if someone was going around saying that the pictures on swingman's web site weren't of his work. He's really a hack that can't put together a plywood box to save his life. He has a shop full of expensive tools and machinery but can't figure out how to use them. The only people who hire him are those who have more money than brains. That's why he taunts people in the newsgroup - he isn't busy doing woodworking and it's the only way he can feel good about himself. He couldn't have solved Dan's problem in a million years. ;-)

Does the smiley make it all better? Hmmm....swingman might even get a bit defensive.

I realize his comments were made in jest (since swingman is one of my customers) but people will read them for years to come and may not realize that it's self deprecating (until they read this). And, the smiley doesn't really make it any better.

I think Dan probably ascribes to the same philosophy. He just didn't appreciate being the butt end of this particular humor. Good friends can poke and jibe at eachother without insult. Not quite the same thing when dealing with strangers.

Ed Bennett [e-mail]

of the TS-Aligner

[Swingman]

Ed Bennett spewed forth delusional froth from the assumed moral high ground:

Tsk, tsk. Don't flatter yourself, Ed. Go make some sawdust ... there's a slim chance that it just may help with that wrongheaded, humorless, self righteousness.

[Leon]

Careful Swingman, the bait has been carefully placed and the fisherman has spied a catch that he probably hopes he can reel in. ;~)

[Lew Hodgett]

RE: Subject

There are over a billion Chinese people.

My guess is less than 100 million can read this thread.

Of that 100 million, probably less than 50 million can understand the thread.

Of that 50 million, probably less than 25 give a f*ck about the thread.

Lew

[Frank Boettcher]

Yes but a few thousand of them are making table saws, and are insuring that ole Ed will have a bright and prosperous future selling those gadgets to try to reset them. :~)

Frank

[Frank Boettcher]

Well this has been an eye opening thread and I think I've seen the light. You see, when I needed to upgrade my table saw I went back to "salvage" (the place where freight damgage, dealer inventory resets, individuals who do not believe in the laws of random variability, and the rare individual who actually has a real problem send their units back to) and asked Jerry if he had a Unisaw. Says Frank I've got this one that came back "alledged defective" (the usual RMA cause) but I've checked it and can't find the reason (the usual outcome) it's within specs., so I say let me go pay finance and I'll back my truck up. I never checked the saw for alignment that day or ever.

Now that was 13 years ago or so, and I've made a whole lot of furniture since then with this saw and while my friends and realtives comment favorably on my work, as the builder I know where all the flaws are that they don't see.

I've always assumed that the flaws were human error, where I measure a little wrong, or skipped a step here or there, or whatever. But now I'm beginning to think I can blame all those flaws on the saw.

So I guess I need to get one of those gadgets that Ed sells and get to tweaking this saw so I can achieve the perfection that I know exists out there somewhere.

Frank

[Ed Bennett]

For many years I used my father's tablesaw (still in use today) but the first table saw I purchased was a Sears Crapsman (about 25 years ago). I learned a heck of a lot of woodworking on that machine and never received a single negative comment from anyone about the quality of my work. There was always a healthy amount of test cuts, re- working joints and "creative fixes" involved in the process and I figured that it was all a matter of skill (and a lack thereof). If I could refine my skills enough then these problems would go away. But, it didn't quite work out that way. Instead, I learned which tasks and design elements proved to be the most troublesome and time consuming so that I could avoid them. It struck me one day when I was trying to talk a customer (an interior designer) out of doing what she wanted me to do (mitered corners). I was being a brainless moron: going nowhere and doing nothing. Pretty soon I'd be making kitchen cabinets as a sub-contractor instead of furniture for designers.

Having the benefit of a formal education, I had the ability to work through a problem in a logical manner. I could examine symptoms, recognize specific causes, and develop systematic solutions to resolve them. I purchased the proper instruments (dial indicator, magnetic base, calipers, etc.) so that I could examine my machines to determine what could be done to reduce or eliminate the test cuts, re-work, and "creative fixes". Basically, I had decided to devote myself to improving my machinery skills.

It didn't take me long to recognize major problem areas. The first thing I did was replace the rip fence. It proved to be an astoundingly amazing improvement. So much so that I decided that the entire saw was a lost cause. I replaced it with the Unisaw that I have today and realized yet another quantum leap in the quality of work that came right off the machine. I probably could have continued to use the Sears saw and optimize its performance but I was impatient.

During this same time, I was developing tools and techniques for eliminating test cuts and rework. With the help of a machinist friend and some engineers, I combined these tools and techniques into the first TS-Aligner. That was in the spring of 1990 - more than 17 years ago. I tested it on a commission from a designer that I would have flatly turned down a year earlier: a night stand made in the shape of an "A". Every joint came together at a compound angle (including the dovetailed drawer sides). I pulled it off without a test cut. No re- work. It was done to budget in record time.

For years I had fought against a poorly maintained junker saw thinking that my woodworking skills were deficient. In reality, it was my machinery skills that needed help. The quality of my wood work was never the issue, it was the enormous time and effort that went into making anything that went beyond simple square joinery, stock molding profiles, curves, angles, shapes, etc. I was wasting time and effort fixing everything that the machine did wrong - leading me to avoid projects that could stretch and develop my woodworking skills.

There are a number of people who want to turn this into flame fest against machinery and its proper alignment. They cite their personal anecdotes about how many years they have been producing fine woodworking without any regard for alignment. In addition to being exasperating, this is nothing more than a straw man argument. The issue has nothing to do with $2000 saws and alignment to within a "thousandths of a gnat's ass". Amazing woodworking has been done for thousands of years before table saws were even invented. Nobody is saying that you have to spend a certain amount of money, or have a certain machine, or align it in a certain way before you can do fine woodworking. People who rant and rave on this point expose themselves as extremely insecure.

This thread is about helping one person to make the most of a recent machinery investment. It's about helping him to learn and apply some machinery skills. It is not a waste of time; it is a way to avoid wasting a lot of time and effort. People who can't sit by without ridiculing him and continually citing examples of how well they get by without any machinery skills are saying a lot more about themselves than they realize.

Ed Bennett [e-mail]

of the TS-Aligner

[Swingman]

That's real sweet, Ed ... but the way you keep it going it's starting to sound a whole lot more like pious, holier than thou, spam.

[Frank Boettcher]

Well, I didn't see that (flame fest). I saw opinions offered about whether it was necessary to align a saw to within a few thousandths or if you could do work that was just as good at .016" 45 degree alignment. If the OP was not interested in opinions that might vary significantly, and would not find that helpful he probably should have contacted you directly rather than posting on a usenet forum or at least ignored the opposing opinions.

Obviously, his opinion is that you* have* to align a saw to a "gnat's ass", and I'm happy your were able to help him. Those who don't share that opinion and offer an alternative "of just cut some wood" are not engaging in a "flame fest" IMHO.

In addition to being

ranting and raving? A little touchy are we. Need to work on that sense of humor.

All the above eloquent Ed, however, some may feel it is a waste of time, and I believe you may be the only one here who has a vested financial interest in having everyone believe that it is not a waste of time.

Frank

El

[Maxwell Lol]

I built a 12"x12"x12" box made with 1/4" plywood, and 4 of the edges were joined with a box joint. I built a prototype before I had Ed's tool, and then built the real one after. It was a LOT easier getting everything lined up precisely square after using the TS Aligner Jr.

Ed even helped me figure out how to align the cross-cut sled precisely. This "just make sawdust" is fine for some jobs. But when errors are multiplied, adjusting a fit afterwards can be a PITA.

[Ed Bennett]

Sorry about the delay in responding. I've been pretty busy and haven't even been able to manage even one post per day.

Hmmmm....and I was thinking that the thread was starting to sound like the glorification of ignorance. Funny how two people can look at the same thing and get two completely different impressions.

Spam? No, it was just a story - much like the one that Frank told. I wrote it with the hope that I could inspire some to approach their woodworking in a more intelligent manner (and perhaps discourage others from ridiculing them in the process).

I received a number of email messages in response. This one pretty much represents the overall sentiment:

"I hope the idiocy here doesn't prevent you from participating in the future. It generally prevents me, but I learn a lot just by watching. I learn because folks like you dare to participate, financial interest or not."

The group used to be a lot more active and it was pretty rare that people would get flamed and ridiculed for asking legitimate questions or making a genuine request for help. At the worst, people would get told to search the archives. It would seem that things have become a bit stifled.

Pious? Holier that thou? Hmmm....again, two people can see things in completely different ways. The situation reminds me of how Galileo was treated when his innovative ideas threatened the pious ignorance of the time.

Thanks, Ed Bennett

[Mike Marlow]

Oh no - you're not going to get up on some gilded throne, and try to proclaim that the world is really round now... are you?

[Swingman]

Only if you don't recall the "Bennet War" flamefests that polluted this forum, ad infinitum, at one point.

Well Galileo, go back and re-examine your public mea culpa from the above ... you're slipping back to your old ways.