Tool ReReview - Refurb Delta Unisaw - Part Two (Long)

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That's why I'm saving up for one right now - for my first table saw.
From everything I've studied regarding table saw splitter/riving knife design and its implementation on varying saws, I wouldn't buy a TS without an integral riving knife that rides up and down with the blade. Otherwise it's kind of useless.
It seems that even without its finger saving brake, it is still a fantastic table saw.
- Matt
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"Greg G." wrote in message

It works absolutely fine in practice ... never even realized that there was a problem.
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Swingman said:

Hmm... I know I have mounted three blades so far, and that if the blade is lower than ~1/2" from the highest height setting, it's sort of useless. Maybe mine is slightly different.
Do you raise your arbor to max when swapping blades? Left-Tilt?
Perhaps it's just that I've got <average? | skinny? > arms, and have never had to raise the blade. This throat is much larger than the old saw, so it feels like a cavern in there, and jacking up the blade just seems like unnecessary motion.
My suggestion about bending the other wrench instead still seems relevant, however, which hand do YOU want swinging around those carbide tips?
Maybe it's because I'm left-handed? I've not had time to think about it in reverse... R is broken.
Minor quibble/observation anyway... I have a large hammer... <g> (And a vise.)
Yeah, I was trying to be funny, but come off like an ass*. :-\
Greg G.
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Hey Greg - I've gotten a kick out of some of your comments, and I've simply appreciated some of the others. In particular, I've found it a little enjoyable to see one of the sacred cows of this group reviewed and disclosed to have some warts - especially in light of how much bashing a lot of "lesser" saws suffer here. But - come on... is it really a big deal to have to put your hand or arm "near" your blade? We're not talking about razor sharp here after all...
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-Mike-
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Mike Marlow said:

Thanks. I'm glad someone else has a warped sense of humor. And I didn't realize it was a sacred cow - I thought it was a big, gray cabinet saw. A machine.
Worked with 'em my whole life. Take 'em apart, fix 'em, and put 'em back together again. Run the piss out of 'em, break 'em, and start all over again.
And I am not trying to 'bash' the saw over a wrench. But purely from an engineer's standpoint, when I look at this photo:
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images \UniSaw20.jpg
Logic tells me, bend the one on the right. The stationary hand holds the left wrench, while resting on the table, and the right hand is swinging the arbor nut with the other wrench.
That photo was taken with the blade lowered to 2 1/4". The arbor wrench (left) is bound on the table top. Won't come off. There is over 2 3/4" of space on the right side for bends in the wrench - and that's the one that has the moving knuckles on it.
Granted, if you hold the wrench near the end, you're not even close to the blade anyway. But...
Now, purely and logically, look at that photo again and tell me their way makes ANY sense. Yea, it may work, but it's freaking illogical. That is my only point, not that it can't be worked around, not that doesn't work. But that it would improve the product (for me, anyway) if they changed it. And it wasn't that big a deal. Till now. :-\
As for the blade sharpness, my WWII _IS_ about as sharp as a razor. That's why that old Delta contractor blade is on there for the photo. It's 5 years old, well worn, and definitely NOT sharp as a razor. It's been a good all-around blade, however. Just not for fine woodworking.
Not trying to start anything here - just analyzing a machine. But I can see this is heading into the same sort of territory as criticizing the current administration. Very emotionally polarized...
Man, am I glad I can type/run fast... <G>
Greg G.
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Greg G. said:

Well, I see from the beeping (and quite annoying) web server alert, that some of those Google types are having difficulty viewing the photo because I used a backslash instead of a forward slash in the photo URL. Sorry. Here is the correct link:
http://www.thevideodoc.com/Images/UniSaw20.jpg
Hmmm... Chicago, UK, NYC....
Greg G.
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Greg G. wrote:

Different strokes for different folks, I guess. To me it makes sense that the hand doing the moving (right hand for left tilt) be close to perpendicular to the arbor axis. Maybe this is just me making an ill-informed non-ergonomisist (is that a word?) non-mechanical engineer guess, but I would tend to think one would be less likely to have the arbor nut wrench slip off that way. With a straight arbor nut wrench, you can pull it straight toward you or push it straight away from you. Also, I've always run the blade up to full height whenever changing it. Like I said before, different strokes for different folks.
-John in NH
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John Girouard said:

John, You are absolutely right about the on-axis leverage, but if you just HAD to bend one, which would it be? I'm not promoting bending either, but Frank suggested that it was to allow for knuckle clearance.
And I also suppose that I am used to automotive combo wrenches, they also have a slight bend in the head/shank relationship. But they also have a thicker head that offsets the inclination to slip off the nut.
Personally, I liked the wrenches on the old saw - both were simply flat steel - never had a problem slamming my knuckles together. But, alas, they won't fit the new saw - first thing I tried.
But that's progress...
Greg G.
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"Greg G." wrote in message

Just leave it wherever it happens to be at the time ... Left.
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Good humor is always well received. Inaccurate "facts" demand to be challenged.

Standard blade supplied for that saw is either a 35-617 10x50 ATB & R made by Leitz in Germany (you remember, the cheap chinese blade by your observation) or an equivilent tooth configuration blade Oldham Signature series made near Ashville, N.C. Which would depend on timing. Both excellent blades based on what matters. However, to give you the benefit the doubt someone could have substituted a Vermont American. ( same guy that ground that table?). Substitutions were sometimes made on benchtop refurb ( something better not worse) but, in the past, it was never done on Industrial. However, new management, who knows. Is it labeled V A or are you just guessing?

It really makes it

Hmm, when I told you why they did it in an earlier post you then responded by saying you knew why they did it. Wonder which statement is true. Works fine for me.

Manufacturers do not generally supply assembly tools, normally only tools needed for ongoing adjustment and then only some of the time depending on how common the tool might be. The supplied wrenches are for adjusting the insert plane and the miter gage stops if memory serves.

another inaccurate statement of "fact" I replaced two flood damaged handles last week with a drift and ball peen hammer.

top part already answered,

Clarification on the statement. Standard splitters need to be designed for the thinest kerf blade not the thickest. A thinner splitter will work with a thicker blade but not vice versa.

Also answered and yes they can. The using public just doesn't want to pay for it and I wouldn't either.
and require you to file this

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Frank Boettcher said:

Well, to be honest, it looked like a US Saw/Oldham blade to me as well, but I was going by what you told me in a previous post:
<QUOTE>

<UNQUOTE>
I like the Oldham Signature blades - they are very good. Unfortunately, no one I've found around here carries them anymore. And this one is chipped. I hope they replace it with the same one.

I know why they did it - I just can't figure out why they bothered. Read it sloooowly... See subsequent discussion and photos.

No biggy - just an observation.

Probably explains the motor pivot shaft in the first saw I got. <g>
I prefer a more eloquent approach, personally. A vise, a press... A "press of some kind" implies a pressing device such as a vise, a screw-driven puller, a press, etc. I don't care for dinged up marks on my hardware - I'm funny like that. It's a personal thang.

Of course, we know thaaat. But a thin splitter combined with a wide blade is not as effective in preventing the wood from closing in on the blade.
A hunk of reaction wood could close up on the blade before the splitter stopped it from doing so - depending somewhat on the distance between the splitter and the rear of the blade.
Delta includes one .125" blade and one .074" splitter. Not the most effective combo. I understand they are not going to include two splitters, and that their solution is to provide one that sort of works with both. Optimally, the blade and splitter should be pretty close to the same thickness.

I understand that, but as I subsequently stated:

Some new, novice purchasers won't know until it happens to them. Unless You come in the box with the saw or put it in the manual.
Besides, I'm more worried about the .032" variations in the table than I am trivial stuff like this.
Dude, you need a vacation... Don't get so excited about it - it's just a saw. ;-) And it's just a discussion... <G>
Greg G.
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also, in addition to. did that oldham look like a stamped steel blade to you?

Balance your just crawfishing.

not excited, just correcting a laundry list of opinion, misconceptions, and inaccurate information with the truth.

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Okay, time for me to jump on in here with a question or two and some comments since the discussion is again about the splitter / guard.
Frank, I doubt you'll remember me but I believe it was you I contacted about 5 years ago. Keith B. gave me your name and phone number at Delta. At any rate, at the time I had a brand new Delta 34-444Z CS and I modified the splitter / blade guard so that the guard would stay in the up position while the blade was being changed. And as you stated (earlier post), it had to fall back into position on it's own when nudged or contacted by a piece of stock going thru the blade. Said another way, it could not be locked in the up position.
I do beleive it was you that I talked to (it was a Frank anyway) and it was explained why Delta did not have this feature on their splitters (codes). I emailed a drawing that showed the modifications (simple cuts and filing) to the splitter and to the plastic guard. Never did receive any further correspondence on that - not even an acknowledgment that the email was recieved. No matter, I had a guard that stayed up even if the rest of the world did not - at the time.
It was almost a year later, when the new tablesaw models arrived at WoodWorkers Warehouse and my friend who worked there called me to say "Come see your idea". Now I seriously doubt that I was the only person submitting ideas to Delta on this and certainly not the only one complaining about the splitter at the time - but one has to wonder.......
Q1 - What does it take to get Delta to accept an idea for a new feature, enhancement, or safety related improvement ?
Q2 - What's the best way to get Delta's attention ?
It does appear that Delta resists making change until somebody else has invented the wheel and decides to market it - and only then do they appear to rise to the challenge. In this case, Jet had just introduced a guard that stayed up on their new models and Delta followed. To me and probably others, Delta may have had some "firsts" way back when but have since decided to become a follower in the market instead of a leader. That's probably a pretty typical corporate culture since the bean-counters now dictate the technology used and not the design engineers.
I think many good, cost-effective ideas get trashed because it would cost a few dollars more to include it - like the arbor nut/flange. That nut couldn't possibly cost more than a couple of dollars to make and even after a fair markup - should never cost $20 retail. But like many other businesses - options usually cost more than they're worth. Corporate greed takes over selling accessories and optional items instead of concentrating on building a loyal customer base. You did note that I purchased a Jet cabinet saw when it came time to upgrade for me and I paid a bit more for the Jet than a Uni. After purchasing the Jet, I had a call from Customer Service, asking if everything was okay. Delta never even sent a postcard or email acknowledging that I even made a purchase from them.... It's all about Customer service.
No, I'm not Delta bashing just showing how treating a customer from the git-go, can be good or bad for the business. In this case, Delta lost. I doubt that you set corporate policy while at Delta but I'll bet you had some influence on it since you seem to have more than a casual insight into "why" some decisions were made. That knowledge and influence (no matter how insignificant you may think it is) could be used now to get Delta to pay attention to the customer. They should consider hiring you back as a consultant...
Now I missed the part as to why you're no longer at Delta but you seem very much pro-Delta and willing to help anyone needing some Delta expertise. Damned if I wouldn't be looking for ways to capitialize on that - even if I was retired (if thats the case).
Just some random thoughts, not well thought out perhaps but certainly not meant to piss anyone off either and if I have, I apologize.
Bob S.
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Bob, I don't remember the specific conversation but it certainly could have happened. I took calls from end user customers all the time on all kinds of issues. I got great enjoyment out of it. I did check my email archive and cannot find a reference but that doesn't mean anything either. could have been forwarded and deleted.

I can't answer that question for this day and age or the next question either. Prior to the consolidation of the tool group, engineering was local, where the product was made and we had great control. We were normally short handed but could prioritize projects and get things done. But when consolidation took place, engineering was transferred to the home office. Now that B & D owns the company, it may be in Towson, MD for all I know. And the years from the consolidation at the beginning of 2000 till the B & D sale could only be described as chaotic.

Many firsts some successful, some not. In the case of the guard lock as I recall there was some confusion (in our minds at least) based on the wording of the UL/CSA regs as to whether the Jet version and ours were even legal initially. But even recently we were first with the preset tension for different blade widths for the 14" Band Saw. First with increased HP for that unit.
We were first with the use of sheet molded compound for saw tables. This is a case where the material was very good, but the market just would not accept it. more or less got burned.

No idea what the arbor nut/flange costs to make. Actually the Marketing people decide what features will be included. For instance, when a and X5 series is initiated, it is marketing that determines that an upscale blade, warranty extension, free goods, such as a mobile base, etc are included. I'm kind of surprised they haven't put that arbor nut/flange in either because it is very nice.
and I hope you are getting good service and enjoying your Jet.

I agree that treating customers with respect is of utmost importance. For instance, my quality manager and I would both scan the rec every day to look for unresolved issues. While I post now we didn't post back then, against policy, however, Ron B. the Quality manager back door contacted many people who had slipped through a crack in what was usually a very good technical and customer service system.
As for the consultant, who knows.....I had another plan but Katrina has caused me to rethink.

Very simple. As part of the consolidation the plant I ran was shut down and I saw no reasonable place for myself elsewhere and elected to take retirement.

I am pro Delta, or more accurately, I am a great supporter of those products particularly in the industrial line that Delta has that I consider either best of breed or most value offered. Not everything fits into that category. I also know just enough about B & D's strategy with the Delta industrial line to be somewhat encourged that they are on the right track and are excited to have it.

I'm certainly not offended
Frank

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Frank,
Thanks for the clarifications and enlightenment and I sincerely hope your future plans materialize. And if anyone from B&D/Delta is peeking - you have a helluva resource in the wild that you should be using to the fullest extent possible.
Now back to the Greg and Frank show.....
Bob S.
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BobS wrote:

Are my eyes bad or was that a Missoula Spook? And well played.
er
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