Too good to be true?

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[...]

VW Lupo 3L TDI, sadly now out of production because it was too expensive for so small a car and VW thought it better to produce nonsense products like the Touareg or the 1001PS Bugatti, the development cost of which could have probably helped to maket the 3L Lupo to larger volume and lower price...

No...
--
Dr. Juergen Hannappel http://lisa2.physik.uni-bonn.de/~hannappe
mailto: snipped-for-privacy@physik.uni-bonn.de Phone: +49 228 73 2447 FAX ... 7869
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On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 20:44:53 +0200, Juergen Hannappel

OK, next?

OK, next?
Of course one-off prototypes of unworkable or unmarketable cars can be made for nearly any purpose. Rocket cars go really really really fast, but they're not roadworthy or marketable either.
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Schwinn, Raleigh, Murray, Titan, To name just a few manufacturers. <grin>
Vespa used to have some scooters that were in that neighborhood. I'm not familiar with current offerings.
The French-manufactured 2CV typically got 50mpg on a _bad_ day.
80mpg is _not_ unrealistic. With one of my old cars, I routinely got in excess of 20mpg at highway speeds. NOT impressive in and of itself, but that was with a car weighing roughly 7300 lbs, and powered with a 7.8L engine. Automatic transmission; _with_ the air-conditioning on.
Scaled down by a factor of 4 -- you're talking about something in the 1500 lb range, with a circa 1.6L engine (assuming you drop the a/c). Its probably only going to have 2-place seating -- a 'roadster' type, or maybe a Morris 'mini'.
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wrote:

Heh. Good point, but I get the feeling the guy was talking about cars. He went from "many" to one model that isn't produced, pretty quickly.

Yeah, but I'm, er, pretty sure it wouldn't pass USA'n crash tests. What with the seats being basically lawn chairs and all, for starters.

Well, if it was linear, sure. But, aerodynamics play a bigger part than you'd think at higher speeds. A late 60's/early 70's Saab 96 weighs something like 1900 pounds, has a 1.7 liter engine, and gets 25MPG.

Or, something lightened so far that it's unsafe. I'd rather spend a bit more on fuel and live. Make it biofuel so we can make it here, rather than giving money to people who hate us, and we're getting somewhere.
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Lots of little motor-bikes and scooters over there -- a fair number of which get mileage numbers in that range. Top speeds of 65 km/h, or less, (sometimes significantly less) though. Supurbly suited for 'in-town' errands and such, much less so for inter-city travel.

I know of at least 2 that are operating in the U.S. licensed, 'street legal'.

Yeah, you have to reduce the frontal cross-section, and thus aero drag, proportionally, as well. Which is why I continued ....
I'm underwhelmed with those Saab figures -- in that same time-frame, got 23MPG in-town, with a 3200lb Dodge, with a 4.6L V-8 engine in it.
In the late 80s a friend was getting 43-44 mpg on the highway, with a Nissan Sentra, with a 2.8L (I believe, might have been a 2.2) engine. With the a/c running. More like 50mpg without the a/c.

Have you ever run the numbers on how much biodiesel one can produce from an acre of farmland in a year?
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Robert Bonomi wrote: ...

Ethanol is better deal to date, but biodiesel is coming on...net positive energy ratios are improving every year w/ better hybrids and improved processes...neither will ever be 100%, but are both net positives.
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Duane Bozarth wrote:

Made from corn? I have been wondering if it would not be better to use sorghum, which grows well over much of the same range as corn, for producing the sugar used to make ethanol.
--

FF


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Somebody wrote:

Why waste time with farmland when you have all the used oil drom those deep well fryers at the fat farms of the country such as McDonalds, Burger King, etc, available?
Lew
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I dunno. maybe because the oil in those fryers -- at maybe 5-10 gallons per site -- typically gets changed far less often than once a week.
Assuming there's 1 such fryer for every 10 people -- I have no real idea, but I suspect its more like 1 per several hundred, if not thousand -- that source will produce an average of 1 gallon/week per person. This isn't exactly a significant dent in usage.
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Robert Bonomi wrote:

I have a customer who does collect used fryer oil as well as a lot of other waste materials which they render.
They do quite a business these days.
Lew
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That's fine for one person, or a small group, but the volume isn't close to what's needed to make it into an infrastructure process.
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snipped-for-privacy@spamcop.net wrote:

Primarily corn, yes. Sorghum doesn't have nearly the sugar content of corn and nowhere nor the yield/acre. Sorghum is essentially a corn substitute where corn is not economical to grow--dryland regions or where excessive fertilizer costs are limiting, for example.
Much production is from hybrids bred specifically for ethanol production and more is going that way every year. I've not seen a specific percentage recently.
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Duane Bozarth wrote:

I gather that the suagar/acre ration is lower for sorghum. I'm not surprised that the corn kernals have a higher concentration of sugar than the sorghum stalks but am surpised that there is more sugar in the whole corn plant, than in the whole sorghum plant. When corn is raised for ethanol production, do they squeeze the whole plant, rather than just the kernals?
One wonders what selective breeding/genetic engineering can do for each, improving the range for sorghum and the sugar content for both. Appears it would take a ten-fold improvement in the yield before biofuels could replace petroleum fuels and that still does not address coals usage, which generates most of the electricity used in the US.
--

FF


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snipped-for-privacy@spamcop.net wrote:

No, the grain is the feedstock, not the plant...the grain must ripen to achiece maximum energy content (and as a secondary necessity, must be dry enough to be handled and stored w/o danger of mold damage and spontaneous combustion) and at that time the sugars in the foliage are largely used up.

There are continuing significant improvements in hybrids specifically for ethanol production in corn and soybeans for biodiesel. I am unaware of any research into large-scale usage of milo for ethanol--I believe the potential yields are simply not competitive w/ corn.
No one, even its most ardent supporters, is claiming biofuels can replace all petroleum. It is simply a resource that is (a) renewable, and (b) does have a positive NEV (net energy value). The latter does continue to increase owing to both improved feedstocks and processing. I suspect both will continue to do so for the foreseeable future, but have no idea where we are now as compared to the ultimate that may be achievable.
As for central station generation, the switch from coal to petroleum-fired was a major mistake as well was the abandonment of nuclear which <should> be the predominant form of central station generation.
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Duane Bozarth wrote:

I'm surprised ther eis more sugar in corn kernals than in the entire sorghum plant. I'm not clear on why the grain is stored at all. It seems ot me it would be more efficient to continuously process it as it is harvested and just tank the jiuce. E.g. make the 'squeezer' part of the combine.
...

How much electricity is generated from petroleum here in the US today?
When I was in the industry it was all but nil. Coal was tops, followed by hydro and nuclear (not sure of the order) and those three accounted at least 90% of the electricity generated in the US.
--

FF


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snipped-for-privacy@spamcop.net wrote:

It isn't "squeezed", it's fermented (in essence). It also is required simply for logistics--to have a continuous process, one must have feedstock continuously--harvest comes only in a short period.

OTTOMH I'm not sure of the total fraction but it is now a measurable fraction--the Clinton/Gore-era paranoia against coal caused a shift to natural gas. Plus, siting issues made any other construction extremely difficult and so there was a plethora of gas-fired turbines installed for fast reserve generation and a lot of these then ended up as being needed.
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snipped-for-privacy@spamcop.net wrote:

Natural Gas is now a large component.
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snipped-for-privacy@spamcop.net wrote:

I've done some more looking specifically wrt to grain sorghum as feedstock vis a vis corn and discover my perceptions were based on my past knowledge regarding feed value more than current state of ethanol production. In an summary assessment done by a KSU researcher, the difference in grain feedstock is actually nearly immaterial to the overall NEV and only a factor economically based on the actual price--grain sorghum w/ it's historic discount as opposed to corn is actually somewhat of a benefit. The major difference (and what confused me) in NEV between, say, 1995 and present is <not> nearly as much attributable to the feedstock as it is essentially all owing to enhancements in the process itself.
What is apparently a limiting factor for ethanol may well be how to generate sufficient market for the byproducts which are necessary to be sold in order to make the profitability of the producing plants. The distillers grains are feed for livestock but it appears there may become a point at which there can not be sufficient demand for all that would be produced.
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On Tue, 05 Jul 2005 10:28:04 -0500, Duane Bozarth

after the sugars have been fermented into alcohol, what's left is mostly cellulose, right?
make it into MDF.
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Cellulose is sugar. Breaking it up might be useful.
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