Titebond II, am I the only one with issues?

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It's sort of the accepted thing on instrument (guitar, etc...) making forums (like mimf.com) that Titebond II is not suitable for instruments because of glue creep. Hide glue (the ground stuff that you mix fresh yourself, not the pre-bottled stuff) and original Titebond are probably the most two most common glues used for building instruments. But when they talk about "glue creep" it usually means that the joint is moving, not that it's really squeezing the glue out of the joint.
Jon
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James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote:

Any "white" glue will creep under sustained load. The solutions are to design your structure so that there is no shear load on the glue joints or to use a different type of glue (plastic resin or phenol-formaldehyde for example) that does not creep under sustained load.

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--John
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I am beginning to wonder if it has something to do with clamp pressure. and the quality of the joining of the boards. From all accounts white and yellow glues do "creep". So if clamp excessive clamp pressure is used to ensure squeeze out the jointed edge is in compression ,some areas more than others . When the clamps are released the compressive load is gone but in the joint "valleys" there will remain in fact a tension load which over time will be allieviated by glue "creep".
I dont know the solution other than using hide glue where. most joints of this type were "rubbed" joints requiring no clamp pressure.....mjh .
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If you have the time, call the company, They're the real experts on the subject.
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James, The common definition of glue creep is during the clamping process, the pieces may tend to move on non-mechanically aided joints.
After the glue, any common wood glue, sets it will not creep. What you are describing is seasonal wood movement. Very common. Design and construction techniques can eliminate or hide this common problem to all woodworkers.
Dave
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I thought "creep" meant the gradual inelastic deformation of a material as a result of constant applied load below the material's yield point, or something like that, anyway.
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Larry Wasserman Baltimore, Maryland
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Lawrence Wasserman responds:

Me, too. Supposedly, creep is helpful for wood joints that need to flex a bit, as in chairs.
Charlie Self "Political language... is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind." George Orwell
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Or joints that are end grain glued to side grain.
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where d'you learn all them long word frum.....mjh
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TeamCasa wrote:

That's not the common definition I'm aware of...creep is the gradual shift of two pieces relative to each other under long term loading and is a potential problem w/ any non-hard glue.
You're right that proud glue lines are not creep but the result of differential expansion from temperature or more commonly moisture...
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Thanks folks for all the help. A few answers to some of the questions popping up. 1. Wood being used is typically 5-7% moisture content. The wood is seasoned in my garage for a few weeks. Cut to rough dimension, sits another week or two, then I cut to final dimension. 2. Clamping pressure is pretty minimal meaning I don't crank the heck out of the clamps. 3. My joints are nice and even before glue up and after. In fact, some of them, with the grain orientation etc... you cannot even see.
I've obviously misused the term "Glue Creep" as these are pieces that have no stresses on them in most cases. I suppose it's possible the moisture content might swell the thickness a bit but it just seems odd that none of the other furniture in the house seems to have this issue (not my construction). Using shellac as well, I wouldn't expect to see moisture changes at the joint although I may be wrong on that assessment. I suppose a more accurate description is "Proud Joints". I believe I'm jointing, gluing, clamping just like most folks so I guess my question is now becoming "Is this normal?".
Cheers, cc
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5-7% is pretty low for equilibrium moisture...where are you located? If it's not in a very arid climate, I'd expect that the final moisture is, in fact, higher and is a likely cause.
Sounds like your working is ok other than I suppose it might be possible (although unlikely if you work anything like I do on fine work--not enough time for that :( ) you are sanding near the joint too soon after gluing and the excess moisture has swollen the joint somewhat so that when it subsequently dries the glue line does stand a little proud of the surface. Some moveement is not unheard of, for it to be extremely prevelant indicates to me there's some difference in moisture equilibrium between the working area and the finished pieces' environment.
I notice the piece you mentioned was cherry and built in the summer...if your summers are humid and you now are looking at very dry, heated indoor air after a couple of years, I could see that...
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Duane Bozarth wrote:

I'm in New Mexico. Humidity is negligible most of the time. Items are being built in the garage and put inside the house approx. 20 feet away. I do remember some pine I worked with at about 9% but generally stuff get's pretty darned dry here. cheers, cc
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Cubby wrote:

Yep, I was guessing somewhere such as that...moutains or flatlander? I'm in far SW KS and it's hard to get that dry here even...
Do you by any chance have a power humidifier hooked up to the central heat?
I can only recomend perhaps waiting a little longer after you glue before final sanding of the glue joint to see if that will help equilibrium some. Even here I rarely have a problem.
Idea...Maybe try a couple of test pieces w/ Type I and II glues (and maybe a couple of vendors' varieties as well) and see if you can tell any difference between the glues and timing of various patterns of work.
OBTW, you <are> finishing both sides of the pieces, correct?
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No humidifier hooked up. I do have to say however, that humidity does tend to swing quite a bit. Usually it's dry (say 15% most of the summer) but rains come and jack that up for a week or so to say 30%. Winters are usually pretty dry. I am finishing all the sides of the pieces (obviously not the mortices/tenons). Just seems odd that the boards move on my projects but not the other furniture. cc
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Cubby wrote:

Most of your purchased furniture is probably finished w/ lacquer and also probably uses heat-cured resin glues...
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