This is so cool! A 'safety' table saw that detects your finger.

[Leon]

You gotta wonder what they are thinking. If they are thinking at all. Lost in their own little worlds.

[Brian Henderson]

I'm not, and I've always said that I don't think it's a bad idea, certainly it isn't. I just said that for most people, I think it's an unnecessary idea. If someone has X amount of money to spend on a tablesaw, is it better to get the Sawstop and have an inferior saw, or should you spend your money to get a much better quality saw? I vote for the better saw. It seems to me that the Sawstop is designed for people with a little more dollars than sense and yes, I strongly oppose their trying to force their technology on the rest of us.

[Brian Henderson]

Sure, but I don't go out and buy safety knives that go dull when touched with human skin. You live and learn lessons.

A tablesaw is a dangerous piece of equipment. Always has been, always will be. That's not to say that a Sawstop might not be a helpful addition, if you choose to use it, but it's also an expensive addition that really isn't worth the cost IMO. As you say, most accidents are from carelessness, people need to take some personal responsibility for their own safety and security.

And cars are so safe now that people aren't paying attention to how they drive and that causes accidents.

So? I certainly don't see the nanny-state needing to mandate that *I* have to pay extra for my equipment because someone else is being careless.

Absolutely. Of course, I retrofit my saw with an overhead guard so I can use it for virtually any cut and I have a removeable splitter for exactly these instances. But then again, we both agree that the failure to use proper and reasonable care is key in most accidents. I use care. Do you?

[Brian Henderson]

You mean the same people who are removing the guards and having accidents? What makes you think for a second that even if the Sawstop became standard equipment, people wouldn't disable it?

The only thing Sawstop cares about is making money. If they force the industry to use their technology, they make a bundle. Come on, let's be honest, they're in it for the paycheck.

[Leon]

So uh, what report have you read that has indicated that the SawStop is inferior? Which saw in particular tests out better than the SawStop that does not cost more than the SawStop? Keeping in mind that there have been a limited few false positives that were resolved on the SawStop, and keeping in mind that Unisons some times have broken trunions that Delta eventually admitted was a manufacturing problem and not a shipping problem, and keeping in mind that some Jet saws had rip fence bar rules that were not accurate. Some Generals have a blade clearance problem, uh, Grizzly is much better but once had a lot of shipping problems that ultimately became a customer problem that he had to resolve. Or should I ask, which brand has not problems at all???

[Leon]

Did yo know how to properly handle a knife when you cut your self? Does a knife that goes dull exist?

My point exactly.

Exactly. For many people, going the extra step of spending a a lottle more money on the SawStop will be taking an extra step towards their own safety and security.

Do you really be lieve that cars are so safe now that people aren't paying attention to how they drive? Not paying attention to how one drives has ALWAYS been a problem. The safety of the car has absolutely nothing to do with not paying attention.

What about the nanny-state that mandates the airbags in your car, that requires you to carry insurance on your car. Simply a different piece of equipment. Because some of my more expensive automobiles have more air bags than my less expensive cars my insurance is cheaper proportionally on those more expensive vehicles. If every one had a protection device that prevented hospital visits perhaps my medical insurance would also be cheaper, ultimately helping the saw to pay for itself.

Um the overhead guard, is not a standard guard. You paid extra for that.

But then again, we both agree that the

Agreed, and I yes I do use care and have been fortunate enough in the last

16 years that that has been enough.

[Leon]

No I mean every one that removes the guard and having accidents or not. Why would prople that bought a saw in particular for its safety feature disable it? It certainly does not get in the way or block you view when being used like the standard guard does? Why did you remove yours and replace it with an overhead guard?

Please. That is the primary reason that they and or any other business in business, to make mone first and formost.

If they force the

Yeah, and you work for free, right?

[Dave Balderstone]

You don't have passengers on your table saw, nor do you run your saw into other people operating other saws.

The analogy simply doesn't hold, Leon.

[nailshooter41]

Leon.... buddy.... let it go.

I learned a long time ago that people will do as they will. If the technology is available to make woodworking or anything else we have in our lives safer for me and you, then we will probably use it when we find we need to or when we can make sense of the timing, dollars, and need.

I intend to take woodworking into retirement. However, I am no so stupid as to believe that in my 70s I will be as mentally sharp or physically capable as I am now. I would like that additional safety of knowing that if I have a senior moment, or a twinge in a joint at an inopportune time I won't lose a digit to one of my tools. I know you feel the same way.

Other impairments are on me now, though. I get too tired meeting deadlines, try to do too many things at once, and take for granted what I am doing sometimes and don't pay close enough attention. I understand what the intellectuals of the group collective are saying, too... no such thing as an accident... all "accidents are preventable"... if you can't do any better than that perhaps you shouldn't be using tools... etc. Heard it all before. Truly, in a perfect textbook world, they are correct.

However, in my world reality raises its ugly head on occasion. Shit happens. My fault, your fault, nobody's fault, it happens. But no matter where the fault lies, I am pissed off when the results fall on me. So a little cushion sounds really good to me.

I don't care about the SawStop conspiracy or the attempt on their part to change the course of my life. We can see how far that got. So now we are where we should be, if you want the technology, buy it. If you don't, don't do it.

I have many years of watching people follow poor safety protocols, or none at all. They take off safety devices, blade guards, don't wear safety glasses, don't wear respiratory protection, use broken ladders, and do just plain stupid stuff. When they are hurt seriously for the first time, it helps them understand the importance of safety and safety devices. Until that time, they are bold mofos, loudly ready to risk life and limb on prinicpal alone, standing the high ground on the basis of their uninjured selves as examples.

Bully for them, I say. The Darwin awards are always looking for new candidates. I don't care about the folks that don't want any safety equipment or devices one way or another. Similarly, I don't care if they are hurt when they disarm/remove/ignore the things that would make their tool usage more safe under a larger variety of conditions.

Let 'em rip, Leon. (No pun intened...) You won't make or win your point.

Robert

[B a r r y]

Bop the baloney...

[Tim Douglass]

Does the riving knife on the Powermatic remove easily so you can use a dado blade? Or have they gone all European and shortened the arbor so you can't even use a stacked dado?

I really like the idea of a riving knife, but I do a lot of dados too.

Oh, I'm also pretty unconcerned about the SawStop until they start mandating it. Probably works great, but the only times I've even come close have been during coast-down, when it wouldn't make any difference anyway.

-- "We need to make a sacrifice to the gods, find me a young virgin... oh, and bring something to kill"

Tim Douglass

[Leon]

Apparently the riving knife comes out easily. The local dealer yanked the riving knife out with out tools before I actually knew what he was doing during his short demonstration. Suddenly it was laying on the TS top.

Actually the SawStop does provide protection during coast-down. Only if you turn the saw off in the conventional way with the regular on/off switch. That switch only turns the motor off, the electronics and cartridge remain effective during coast down. Early on I enquired to SawStop about that since that was how I got cut.

If you loose power, unplug the saw or turn the saw off by the master cut off switch you would not be protected.

[Tim Douglass]

That's good design.

Now that you mention it, I think that was discussed in one of the interminable threads long ago.

I'm not yet in the market for a new saw, and may never be in the market for a saw of that price. But it does interest me.

-- "We need to make a sacrifice to the gods, find me a young virgin... oh, and bring something to kill"

Tim Douglass

[Leon]

Remember, that is on the newer PM 2000 not the PM66.

[Brian Henderson]

I don't know, if there was any money in it, I'm sure someone would come up with it. I don't think anyone is going to be paying $100 for a steak knife that does it though. Profit drives innovation.

Which is fine, that's up to them. But Sawstop wants to force EVERYONE to use their technology whether they want it or not.

Nope, I didn't pay any extra for it, I built it myself with stuff I already had around the shop. ;)

[Brian Henderson]

Because we're not talking about people who go out and purposely buy SawStops, we're talking about people who are forced to pay extra for a piece of technology that they neither want, nor need. The fact that every time the thing goes off, you're out $200. You don't think people are going to disable that?

Yup, and they want an entire industry to use *THEIR* technology. It isn't a matter of them campaigning for *SOME* safety equipment, they want everyone to be forced to use *THEIR* equipment.

This has nothing to do with safety, it has to do with making a buck.

[Leon]

So uh your shop is like mine. Stuff magically appears. :~) and in my case disappears?

[Leon]

Well so far no one has been forced to do anything. So if they buy the SawStop it is their own decision. No, I do not think a person will disable the SawStop and IIRC there has been no mention by the owners of the SawStop of purposely defeating the system as a permanent cure.

Well, wouldn't you, if you were in their shoes? Seriousely wouldn't it be nice if you were legally getting a percentage of every TS being sold?

That is not entirely true. They could just as easily be marketing something else unique for the TS and try to have it mandated also. They did however realize that a better safety devise would cut down drastically on severe injuries. Suppose they decided that every TS should have a laser cutter that only cut wood and only cut as deep a the thickness of the wood. The technology is here as most WW shows have a vendor selling laser engravers and some are less than $10k. That could easily be around the corner and would give SawStop and every one else a run for the money. You can sit back and watch other countries continue to out manufacture the US but I think the SawStop company is a breath of fresh air in contrast to the some ole some ole. And again, it is for the buck like every other company in the U.S.

[CW]

No, I wouldn't. There are still a few of us in the US that see ethics as more important than money. We're getting damned rare though.

[Moon]

I think that most of these guys who are objecting to this "technology" are like me, tired of being protected from themselves. It seems that safety requirements are based upon the assumption that everyone using a vehicle, or any other machinery which may cause injury or death if misused, is an imbecile incapable of using "common sense".