Thinking of getting a new TS, Right tilt or Left tilt?

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OK, ;~) I probably have that covered.
Actually I am looking for experience with 3 different saws that I am considering. I am workinging working with a Jet JTAS cabinet saw, left tilt. ths saw sets on a 3 wheel dull mobile base that I love. The saw also has a fold up/fold down 15 roller out feed that has not supports legs and is totally supported by the saw cabinet. I love that too.
I am looking for a saw with a true honest to goodness riving knife plus other better features to help justify the cost of upgrading.
Number 1 choice would be a SawStop Professional of Industrial saw. Also considering a Laguna TSS.
The SawStop Professional should be the equivalent to current saw however it's rip fence is shorter and it seems lighter weight than my saw.
The SawStop Industrial Is physically larger, table wise, and about 50% heavier, the trunnion is massive compared to the Professional version.
Over and above mine, They both offer a riving knife and the blade brake feature.
The Laguna TSS is a different beast altogether and if some one owns one I would love to hear details.
Over and above my saw this thing weighs about 1,000 lbs. It has a sliding table that is the entire surface immediately left of the blade. This thing has a 48" cross cut capacity and 50" rip capacity It has scoring blades and it has the riving knife.
Regardless of which saw I pick the saw must be mobile.
Pricing for these saws equipped the way I would want one would be about $3500, $4600, and $5800 respectively.
Oh, I want to sell my Jet cabinet saw so if any one in the Houston area is interested, let me know.
Any thoughts from SawStop or Laguna owner/users?
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Any thoughts from SawStop or Laguna owner/users?
I have the SS Pro. Fit\finish pretty good. I think the extension table atta chment could be improved. Kinda have to tweak it to get super even to table and then it needs adjust after time. My table isn't bolted down and isn't supposed to be mobile but I think that movement is what makes the table go out.
Set blade and fence sq once. Checked it a few times but has remained sq eno ugh with lots of abuse and haven't had to readjust.
I like how easy the the riv knife assembly goes in and out when you need to do dados, etc. I like how easy it is to leave the blade guard in-place, it works well with no probs. I like how well the motor box hinges open easily (read Unisaw not). The dust collection is OK but I have to vacuum out the bottom now and then after lots of run.
If I was a cabinet guy doing sheet work that could use a scoring blade and sliding table I would consider the Laguna but for me, furniture, I use sa p recision cross sled and wouldn't use the slider anyway.
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On 3/13/2013 6:49 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote:

attachment could be improved. Kinda have to tweak it to get super even to table and then it needs adjust after time. My table isn't bolted down and isn't supposed to be mobile but I think that movement is what makes the table go out. My right extension table is not perfectly flush with the saw table either and for the past 14 or so years that has not mattered, it is close enough to not affect cuts.
I got an e-mail from the SawStop people concerning the right table extension legs. He indicated that the legs are there strictly to prevent some one from leaning on the table and tipping the saw. Other wise they are not needed. I was always under the impression that they were to help support the right table extension. I went to a local dealer today and gave this a test. I lifted the end of the Industrial unit. Let me rephrase that, I attempted to lift the table extension. With one arm I tried to lift the table extension to see if I could feel any give or play in the table. I felt absolutely no movement at all, not a hint of wiggle at all. It was like the legs were bolted to the floor. I am quite certain that the legs were tightened down to the floor more than necessary so I believe that they and the fence rails were carrying a lot of the weight of that 700lb+ saw.

Good to know.

dados, etc. I like how easy it is to leave the blade guard in-place, it works well with no probs. I like how well the motor box hinges open easily (read Unisaw not). The dust collection is OK but I have to vacuum out the bottom now and then after lots of run. I have played with that feature and it certainly would not be an excuse to not replace the riving knife after cutting a dado.

sliding table I would consider the Laguna but for me, furniture, I use sa precision cross sled and wouldn't use the slider anyway. I find that simply running the panel through with the blade raised 1/8" and then raising the blade and running the panel through again creates the same results as a scoring knife when simply cross cutting panels. I currently use an MJ splitter and it works well when I remember to replace it after making a scoring cut but a couple of weeks ago I neglected to replace it when making the through cut and had a situation occur. No harm this time, it was not a surprise and I was ready for it but a scoring knife would solve 99% of those problems.
Thanks for the feedback.
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Leon wrote:

I am amazed that a Festool owner could find themselves in a dilemma like this!
Laguna sure offers a lot of different saws. Here's a link in case anyone else is curious: http://www.lagunatools.com/tablesaws
I think Swingman would suggest going with a SawStop, huh? I cannot advise, but hope you get an opportunity to see a Laguna TSS. Maybe, it's "not all that"? : )
Bill
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On 3/13/2013 7:06 PM, Bill wrote:

LOL

The video's are very interesting to watch. FWIW about 6 years ago I though I was upgrading and bought an 18" Rikon band saw. It was noisy, it vibrated and build quality was not what I expected. I ordered one sight unseen from a Woodcraft with the understanding that if I was not happy with the saw I could return it. 3 weeks later I returned it.
I learned about the Laguna LT16HD band saw with its 10 point ceramic guides and how those would help prevent noise and vibration. I bought that saw and finally did get an upgrade. I would say that is is probably better built than most any "cabinet" saw in the same price range. The saw is a joy to use. And yes it was/still is the most expensive piece of equipment in my shop.

No Laguna TSS dealers in the Houston area. It too like the LT16HD would be a sight unseen purchase. Not sure I would want to part with $6K under those circumstances. And I might add, Euro table saws are a totally different breed than the American style table saws. The fact that the TSS is strictly right tilt is a strike against it as far as I am concerned. I am sure I could get used to that but familiar has more appeal to me at this point. I really don't want to have to relearn how to operate a saw.
I looked at Hammer and their saw is a bit more appealing however it only uses blades with 3 holes. I would have to replace 3 Forrest blades and a Forrest Dado King set. And oddly many Euro style saws have no right side miter slot. Removing the fence requires you to slide the fence to the end of the table past the end of the front steel bar.
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On 3/13/2013 7:37 PM, Leon wrote: ...

You also will want to double-check on any Euro-approved saw if want to use a dado set. Dodo sets are not allowed under the EU OSHA-equivalent and my understanding is that's enforced by the arbor length being too short for them. That is what have been told but I don't have direct firsthand knowledge just I'd recommend checking to be sure...
For panel work the sliding table design is a godsend if the table is large-enough for the type of work one normally does. I can't help you on the Laguna in particular but can speak of the utility of the design having had access to a large (and very old) Baxter & Whitney when in Lynchburg.
<http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id 508>
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On 3/13/2013 9:39 PM, dpb wrote:

lowered to not cut all the way through.
The euro union considers it dangerous to have a blade not come up through the piece. Yet a scoring blade is just that, and a regular blade can be lowered to not cut all the way through.
I think their reasoning is that you can't see the blade, while a riving knife or split,, or full cut you can see the cut.. if they were that worried, they could put a colored strip down the table embeded so that you see where not to put your fingers.
There's no shortage of weenies on both sides of the pond.
--
Jeff

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On 3/13/2013 8:51 PM, woodchucker wrote:

I think that the focus on the dado blade in Europe is actually the multiple stacks of blades rather than not cutting all the way through. If a stacked dado set is not properly tightened the blades could continue to spin after the arbor has stopped spinning. Blades spin in the same direction that the nut spins when it is removed, this could spin the arbor nut off of the arbor and that would not be good especially if the operator started the saw back up. and in many cases with stacked sets the nut is not threaded far on the arbor.
A single washer and nut on a single blade regardless of thickness can exert a lot of pressure. Once you start adding multiple surfaces the pressure has to be increased to prevent the possibility of the separate blades spinning on the arbor. Add to that a bit of grease or dust on the chippers and the inner blades could spin even easier.

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On 3/13/2013 8:39 PM, dpb wrote:

That is true in some cased if you buy the saw over there. Saws sold here, at least the Laguna have been, modified if necessary to accept dado sets.
Some brands are imported and sold as it so to speak. IIRC Hammer is one. While it does not use the traditional stacked dado set it does have a special blade that makes a wide cut. for example,
http://www.felder-tooling.us/8head-017420/8head-019220/8head-wkzg-00920-8ba-k3-008-813-00120/8500-03-019-text-0320.html

The Laguna will cross cut 48" and comes with a 48" long sliding table fence so cutting a 4x8 sheet into 2 4x4 sheets would not be an issue.
BUT I use a track saw these days to make cuts like that and those cuts are not often made on the table saw any more.

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"Leon" wrote in message

I've looked at those in the past and they are pretty interesting... It was at a show in NJ at the Felder/Hammer booth where Frank Klausz was messing around with one of the jointer/planers. It looks like those blades would leave a nice flat bottom and with replaceable cutters and nickers should make nice clean cuts for a long time. Likely a sound investment for a commercial shop...
It looks like Klausz is a spokesman for Felder/Hammer... in NJ I thought he was just playing!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dj7H7oVWe6s

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On 3/13/2013 9:47 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:

Yeah those "blades" apparently operate much like a sharper blade

And or this guy. This is a good one too. He rides the sliding table about half way through.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZoRaBn-n70


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"Leon" wrote in message

He sets a bad example for my kids. ;~)
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"John Grossbohlin" wrote:

He sets a bad example for my kids. ;~) -------------------------------------------------------------------- We represent some German instrument companies who have guys in marketing/sales who sound just like this guy.
Must be the water.
Lew
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On 3/13/2013 7:04 PM, Leon wrote:

out the back and a big sheet . I know the cabinet is heavy, but would you really trust it.. I would at least put a leg down, just one, make it adjustable ...
curious what you finally go with.
--
Jeff

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On 3/13/2013 8:15 PM, woodchucker wrote:

Would trust it and do trust it, I have been using this 15 roller extension table for 14 years. I could probably sit on it, it has a 200lb weight capacity. Absolutely the best out feed I have ever seen.
This is not new for me, I want it on the new saw also.
http://www.htcproductsinc.com/outrs.html
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On 3/13/2013 6:04 PM, Leon wrote:

Something that I have learned about the SawStop. The stop triggers only if there is direct or indirect contact with the operator.
What this means is that you can cut through a nail as long as you are not touching the end of the nail when it is cut. If you are touching the nail, you complete the circuit and it trips. Wet wood will not trigger the stop unless it is wet enough to provide an electrical path to your hand.
I plan to find out if the electrical path could also be the table top.
There is a bypass mode to prevent a trigger and the bypass mode is used to test cut a material to see if the material will cause a trigger when in protection mode. Basically if you are cutting a material that may complete an electrical circuit to your hand test cut it in bypass several times and see if the saw detects you. If not run the material in protected mode. If it detects you, run the saw in protection mode. The saw always reverts back to protected mode after the motor switch is turned off. As long as the motor is running the saw remains in bypass mode.
The stop cartridge records the type condition that causes the trigger. At least at this time if you sent the cartridge to them and it indicates that it detected a direct flesh contact SawStop will replace the cartridge at no charge.
The blade that has been embedded in the cartridge may not be destroyed. It is advised that an inexpensively made blade be discarded while a better quality blade may only need to be trued and teeth replaced as needed. I have seen pictures of some of the blades after being pulled out of the stop, if you did not know otherwise you would not be able to see any damage. I suspect the most damage is that the blade would no longer be flat and would need to be re-flattened.
Just a FYI
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On 3/13/13 10:10 PM, Leon wrote:

Unless you're dead-set on getting the sawstop technology, the Laguna is a no-brainer to me. If money isn't the real factor here, Laguna is just a much better machine, don't you think?
How long have you gone without cutting off a finger? Who knows maybe you already have and that's why you're looking at the sawstop. But someone who's gone as long as you have in a shop and still can count to ten has been practicing safe techniques with the table saw.
That Laguna with the sled just make things even safer, imo. The scoring blade, alone, is worth the price of admission in my book.
--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
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On 3/14/2013 10:56 AM, -MIKE- wrote:

Well actually the Laguna is built in Bulgaria. That may or may not mean anything, probably as good as a better Asian knock off. FWIW I love my Laguna BS however Laguna is not a manufacturer of woodworking machinery rather an importer that has the machines built to their specifications much like many other brands these days. I will say that the Laguna machines do have very nice and well thought out tweaks. I gave the Industrial SawStop a close look under the hood yesterday and it is much more impressive than the Pro version. Depending on how the saws are equipped the industrial is at least 200 lbs heavier and that according to SawStop is in the 3 extra inches in the depth of the top and in the trunnion. The trunnion and every thing in between is all cast iron on the industrial where as only the trunnion tilt and supports are cast iron on the pro. Every thing in between is a welded torsion bar system of some sort. Don't quote me on that description.

It has now been almost 24 years since I cut half my thumb off.
Who knows maybe you

I can assure you not every one always practices safe woodworking habits. I have talked to many many people that claimed to follow the rules and something happens. I am getting older and I don't want to give up woodworking because of the possibility of making a mistake again. It would tickle me to death should I buy the SawStop that I never trip the brake from doing something questionable.

Absolutely and the reason that it is on the table of saws to consider. The biggest drawback is that with its "bolted on steel out feed" the saw becomes 32" deeper and while I do have room that is about 26" farther out than my current fold down out feed which would not transfer over because of the sliding table. Then there is the right tilt which I am not fond of. The mobility kit that requires the front and back wheel to be jacked up and down. I would be moving the saw more than I would be benefiting from the sliding table, every day I work with the saw.
Deep down I think the Laguna would be a great step up but I don't want to loose sight of why I am upgrading to start with. Safety is my number one concern.
I will be kicking this around more, I have not definitely decided one way or another but the Industrial SawStop is looking better with less to have to learn and most all of my jigs and fixtures would work with it. It is an all new ball game with the Laguna.

cutting plywood when the cut is not going to be buried in a dado.
Do I want curtain A, B, or C?...
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On 3/14/13 1:15 PM, Leon wrote:

The saying "sounds like you've already made your choice" comes to mind. :-) In this particular case, imo, that choice is a wise one.
--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
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On 3/14/2013 1:57 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

It sounds like I have already made my choice, I wish! ;~) First choice was the pro SawStop, then the Laguna, and now the Industrial....
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