The Building Bidness

There are a fair number of guys around here that this will resonate with.

When I went to work for my first GC as a Carpenter's Helper, he had his own electrician, his own plumber, his own block and stucco guy, his own carpenters - all this was in-house. Little did I know that I was observing the death of that way of building homes.

As carpenters we were there from the setting of the batter boards to the turnover of the keys to the owner. Sometimes we participated in the site work.

As carpenters we did the layout and participated in the concrete flatwork. If there were concrete stairs, we formed them. We framed, we roofed, we guttered and downspouted, and we sheetrocked, we hung doors and trimmed. We also painted. We put the windows in, and the floors, and the stairs, and the kitchen cabinets, and we laid the tile or stone in the entry. If there were to be bookcases - we made them - onsite.

Shortly after this sweet indoctrination (which I have been eternally grateful for) the model of how to build houses changed.

The builder went from being a man who had worked himself up through the trades to being a guy with a phone and a fancy car.

He hired subcontractors for everything and had almost nobody on his payroll.

There was some tension there for awhile as the old line guys tried to explain why their way was better.

But the numbers ruled.

Why did the guys with the cars and phonebooks win?

Accountability.

Under the old way of doing things you could not dodge your responsibility because every dodge showed up in the next step and you would have to deal with it - or one of your fellow employess would.

This kept things honest and true.

Did the old way build better houses? You bet your ass it did.

Could an old timey builder compete in the current market?

Nope.

Customers want their square feet. They have never been raised to understand the quality involved in a righteous home.

They want their square feet.

I'm not complaining all that much. I've made a pretty good living in the past by trimming out million dollar plus houses the way they should have been trimmed in the first place.

But the system sucks.

Regards,

Tom Watson

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Tom Watson
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Reply to
skeez

Boy Howdy. I spent a some time as a callow yute as an assistant for the local carpenter. He was, of the, ahem, old skool you describe.

*Everything* was perfect, square, plumb, and finished flawlessly, even the parts no one could see. 'Funny thing was that he was faster than anybody else in town - little or no rework.

Then I went to work repairing maritime electronics for another old time, no BS, boss. He taught me useful things like turning the exterior screw heads (that held cable clamps down) for that last tightening so the slots would be vertical and thus the water would run out of them.

Those two guys taught me more in a handful of summers than 8+ years of college ever did. And they didn't do it because they particularly liked me or were taking me under their wing ... they did it because, well, that's how it's *supposed* to be done. To this day, when I have to pry something open in my fairly new house, I met with a host of small horrors that would have gotten my biblical beast of burden kicked by either of the aforementioned mentors.

P.S. No antenna or radar we ever installed - or better still, repaired after someone else had installed it incorrectly - ever blew down or got filled with water in the wretched conditions of the N. Pacific fishing grounds. In at least one situation I can recall, the entire crew of a big ocean going crabber survived because our radio worked to get the Guard to them promptly in a storm. Being nice is way overrated. Insisting your employees do thing properly every time is way more important ...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tim Daneliuk snipped-for-privacy@tundraware.com PGP Key:

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Reply to
Tim Daneliuk

"Tom Watson" wrote

I'm resonating ... and you hit the nail on the head (a rare occurrence these days, literally and figuratively).

Reply to
Swingman

You know Swing, I'm not quite old enough yet, I still have babies to raise for a few years, but I could grab a couple of trades guys of similar bent and move our asses out to your country and build houses old timey.

It would be a wonderful way to end my career. Like full circle.

I've been involved in a couple of projects where it's almost been an All Star Team of mechanics on a building. It was like making music.

I'd like to repeat that.

Regards,

Tom Watson

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Reply to
Tom Watson

RE: Subject

All together now, can we say, "Levittown"?

Lew

Reply to
Lew Hodgett

I disagree on several points but mostly this one. A good builder will stand behind his product and a poor one won't.

Why did the guys with cars and phonebooks win?

The only reason is cost.

If a builder wasn't saving money using contractors, you can bet he would still have 15 guys on his payroll.

You're not comparing apples to apples though. I've been around a long time too and I believe that the materials used in homes today (again mostly due to cost) has as much to do with the quality of homes being built as the craftsmanship. You can still find good tradesmen, if you look and can afford them, but they all use the same crappy material. When was the last time you saw 3/4" planking (run on an angle) used for a subfloor on a new home and then 3/4 solid hardwood throughout? When was the last time you saw 3/4" planking used for roof decking on a new home? When was the last time you saw cast iron drain lines in a new home? Even copper water pipes are becoming more rare even in upscale homes. If we built homes today using the same old school materials we would have much better homes and I would suggest this would certainly close the gap in quality between then and now.

I agree.

I agree here too.

Maybe but I've never met a framer that I would want to trim my house...not even framers that had 20 years of experience when I started over 25 years ago. In my early days I also worked for and around a few old school guys who tried to do it all. Some things they were very good at and some things.... not so much. Your experience must have been different.

This is an interesting discussion but it may all be moot since we may not get to build any more new homes in this economy anyway.

Mike O.

Reply to
Mike O.

"Hicksville" is better!!! :)

Reply to
Chris

I disagree on several points but mostly this one. A good builder will stand behind his product and a poor one won't.

Why did the guys with cars and phonebooks win?

The only reason is cost.

If a builder wasn't saving money using contractors, you can bet he would still have 15 guys on his payroll.

You're not comparing apples to apples though. I've been around a long time too and I believe that the materials used in homes today (again mostly due to cost) has as much to do with the quality of homes being built as the craftsmanship. You can still find good tradesmen, if you look and can afford them, but they all use the same crappy material. When was the last time you saw 3/4" planking (run on an angle) used for a subfloor on a new home and then 3/4 solid hardwood throughout? When was the last time you saw 3/4" planking used for roof decking on a new home? When was the last time you saw cast iron drain lines in a new home? Even copper water pipes are becoming more rare even in upscale homes. If we built homes today using the same old school materials we would have much better homes and I would suggest this would certainly close the gap in quality between then and now.

I agree.

I agree here too.

Maybe but I've never met a framer that I would want to trim my house...not even framers that had 20 years of experience when I started over 25 years ago. In my early days I also worked for and around a few old school guys who tried to do it all. Some things they were very good at and some things.... not so much. Your experience must have been different.

This is an interesting discussion but it may all be moot since we may not get to build any more new homes in this economy anyway.

Mike O.

Reply to
Mike O.

"Mike O." wrote

Hell, I've got one in the bidding stage, and another lined up behind that one ... I'm not counting my chickens, mind you, but I'll keep building as long as I'm able and someone wants to pay ... or until youngest daughter gets out of college and bass boats become more affordable, which ever comes first. :)

Speaking of "The Building Bidness", and once again ... anyone, pro or diy, with any interest in home building, should be required to read "House" by Tracy Kidder. It's been years, but I still cherish the overall read, which explores every angle and POV.

As one pundit put it about "House" ... this construction project is the framework for exploring what happens when we put a running meter on a dream."

Reply to
Swingman

We've been very busy until just recently. We have a few ahead us but there are going to be spaces between. What we're starting to hear is that the lenders are very stingy right now. Our builders are telling us that instead of a couple weeks for people to get their loans, it's taking two or three months. That's for people who will obviously qualify and there are many more now who won't.

I'll have to check it out. I always get a kick out of the movie The Money Pit. Some things are a bit exaggerated but I swear I've heard some of those lines on the job.

Mike O.

Reply to
Mike O.

SFWIW, we deal with manufacturers of materials for the building industy.

One customer, a manufacturer of PVC pipe, indicates current production is in the 40% of normal range.

Another, an MDF manufacturer started cutting back on production in the Mar/April time frame.

It's going to take a while to clean things up.

Lew

Reply to
Lew Hodgett

I can't tell if this paragraph is a joke.

Are squeaky floors and root-filled sewer lines indicative of quality construction?

I have a 40 year old house and I'm about two seconds away from ripping up the plank flooring and gluing down OSB. I'm about 3 seconds aways from tearing out these crappy single paned windows. I'm about four seconds from plying off the roof, (after running some lights up in my attic and seeing what passed for rafters and the rickety bracing those fine "craftsmen" installed) and installing trusses.

It was only 13 years ago that I built my own first home. At that point board lumber was still much less expensive that engineered lumber. If I had waited even 5 years, it would've been close to even. I wouldn't have though twice about using those new fangled materials like I-joists, floor trusses, laminated beams.

I agree with you about the cost aspect, but it's still all about skill, craftsmanship, and pride in your work.

Reply to
-MIKE-

"-MIKE-" wrote

Actually, and IME, the 70's, while not the beginning, was the era that shoddy home construction became so ubiquitous that those coming up at the time had never seen the difference.

There ya go, Bro ... couldn't' agree more.

Reply to
Swingman

Tom Watson wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

Not always! There has always been crappy construction, done with an eye toward profit rather than quality, just as there have always been customers who want (or need) quantity over quality. I used to spend time in a lovely little house near the beach that had the second floor framed with 2x4 joists on 24" centers. The joists were also notched for the grooved lath that held the house wiring. The second floor was like trampoline! If they hadn't been relatively straight-grained virgin Douglas fir they probably wouldn't have lasted a year.

When my parents bought their latest house the kitchen had been remodeled with custom-built cabinets. They were pretty ugly, looking like they were built of oak flooring. Guess what? The kitchen was remodeled by a flooring contractor! At any rate, when my folks ripped out the old kitchen, they found that the slightly-springy second floor was supported by 4x4's on 4-foot centers! Not only that, when my dad was tearing out the old wallboard he found three live electrical wires that had been merely cut off and left to hang inside the walls. Now that's attention to quality.

I have rehabbed a fair amount of old furniture, and I know that you know that there is a lot of very poor craftsmanship behind those drawer fronts and under the upholstery, and very cheap materials.

I think your safety glasses are getting a little too rosy. People are people. Some like their jobs, are good at them, and care about the results. Some customers know good work and are willing to pay for it. But there are just as many people, and maybe more, that only care about short-term profits, are only punching the clock, need something right now at a low price, are only going to use it for a little while and get rid of it, etc.

If you look around, you'll find that actually, housing today may not be as charming as in the past, but in general is much safer and more energy-efficient. Also, in general, buildings today are not meant to last forever, so why invest excessive amounts of labor and materials in them? If the customers decide at some point that keeping buidlings around is better than always ripping down and rebuilding, then the "old ways" may come back, at least in terms of high-quality craftsmanship and materials.

But don't hold your breath.

Reply to
Scritch

How true. I have worked on several homes (100+ years old) in the historic district of our town, and a few older commercial buildings over the years.

People are people. Tradesmen are people.

There are some that want to excel at every aspect of their work, and there are those that are putting in a day's work. Tearing out old work, revamping old work, repairing old work certainly bears that out. I have seen plenty of slipshod work in old structures.

If a guy is going to do good work, he will do it. If he is there to collect a check and do work just good enough to get by, that's what he will do.

It's that way in all of human nature, across all job descriptions.

Robert

Reply to
nailshooter41

"Swingman" wrote

Forgot to mention ... one of the builders in Tracy Kidder's "House", Jim Locke, who "epitomizes true craftsmanship", subsequently wrote a book called "The Well Built House", that is equally, if not more important, to those ever wanting to practice beating themselves over the head by doing so.

HIGHLY recommended also, as just a damn good read for most wooddorkers.

Reply to
Swingman

I don't know how far back the change occured - I suspect after Allentown

- the first tract houses (ie. build 400 units at a time - with separate crews for each major task - excavation, rough plumbing, forming, pouring , framing and subflooring, wiring, plumbing, heating and ducting, lath & plaster or dry wall, electrical finishing, finish carpentry, painting, cabinet installers, . . .) Crews did ONE thing - over and over and over - and often had no idea what was to be done next. So the foundation crew screw ups were left for the framers to fix, the framers left screw ups for the sheet rock guys and the sheet rock guys got good at furring walls and hiding things under mud, what screw ups they left would be taken care of by the painters and trim carpenters, ...

I've got a house that was built in 1954 - a tract house - one of four floor plans and two rooflines for each floor plan. I've done a LOT of remodeling over the years - and found walls are seldom plumb or corners square. On the other hand, I've worked on some old victorians that probably started out square and plumb, but time and settling have affected the original attention to detail.

Then there's my oldest, an ex-marine who became a carpenter's helper after getting out of the marine corp. He was fortunate to be taken under the wing of an old school "carpenter" and learned to do things both right - AND quickly and efficiently. So when it came time to build his own place - yes he hired subs - but he checked their work BEFORE handing over a check - and did all the framing himself, with help from his BIL - who was paid going wages.

Since the site is about 8 houses down the street, I'd stop buy around lunch time to get the tour of what had gotten done - with details of "challenges" with his solutions. Unlike his wife and mother, who know nothing of what's involved in building a house from the dirt up, I could appreciate what he was doing and ask leading questions which would give him the opportunity to brag a bit. (mitered corners on facia boards on the end of the rafters - so there's no end grain exposed to the weather, plumb and square methods, trim out tricks, etc..

He subsequently got his general contractor's license, passing the test on the first try - just as the building boom was ending - and with it, his job with an upscale remodeling outfit (MINIMUM jobs are $175K - bathrooms, and typical jobs are $350K kitchens).

Tough times coming for The Trades - which is why he's applying for the California Highway Patrol. There will ALWAYS be speeders and drunk drivers so there's good job security.

The unfortunate thing about our educational system is the lack of "trade schools". If you want to learn problem solving and develop discipline and creative thinking, engineering and computer science aren't the only place to develop those skills. Just hand a pair of metal shears and some galvy sheet to an engineer and ask them to make a rain gutter down spout. Or better yet, have them build a set of stairs, with a landing - then do the hand rails for it.

Oh for the Good Old Daze?

charlie b

Reply to
charlieb

I have an uncle who owns a machine shop. He is always looking for machinists. So much so that, in the past, he's paid the fees for kids with promise to *go* to trade school. Guess what? They can't hack it. Specifically, they can't handle the math (algebra and trig) that are pretty much a necessity for any working machinist.

Reply to
Tim Daneliuk

...

that alone will be the downfall of the US. sure we need a lot of college graduates in high tech fields, but people have to live somewhere and get things repaired. without training in these fields, where do the majority of people to do these tasks come from, as existing people in the trades die off and aren't available to teach any more.

regards, charlie

Reply to
charlie

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