Table Saw purchase question

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On 3/9/2014 6:53 PM, Leon wrote:

No, Leon, I haven't. As I've said, I'm not questioning the quality of the SawStop but rather the "consensus". And not the consensus of just the "wreck". There must be a market for the other "quality" table saws or the SawStop would put its competitors out of business. (and not saying that won't happen either) ;-)
The last time this issue surfaced I mentioned that *if* I bought one the first time that brake busted my saw and blade I would trade it for a saw without the feature. In other words there's more to the equation than saving a finger. For me.
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Max wrote:

If you review the owners manual (which I did), you'll find there's plenty more to the equation.
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On 3/9/2014 10:29 PM, Max wrote:

Repeating what I have mentioned in another part of this thread, there have been numerous publications with comparisons and the SawStop tends to come out on top. I did a lot of Googling prior to spending $4k for my SS. And as I mentioned above, Delta is almost there and or was a couple of years ago. I saw a video of their come back from the dead production facility. A brand new facility IIRC. It at the time a couple of years ago appeared to be about the size of a 15~20 bar automotive repair shop. I was rather shocked.

I don't think you would have any worries with the brake busting the saw. The same contractor saw gets demonstrated time and again during most wood working shows. If the contractor and pro versions operate in the same manner there is a release of the arbor assembly as it drops below the table surface. Energy is absorbed by the brake and the rubber bumper stop at the bottom of the drop.
If the contractors saw can take the rigors of the brake engaging time and again I seriously doubt that any thing in the industrial version would be at risk with all of its mass under the table.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/8635558850/
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On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 16:26:43 -0500, Leon wrote:

That's certainly true. It *has* to be heavier to take the shock when/if the brake fires.
But I worked for a power tool retailer for a few years and had the opportunity to examine (and @#$% assemble) several brands and types of table saws. I think the cabinet saws from Powermatic, General, and maybe even Steel City, are equal or better in quality to the Sawstop.
A prospective buyer has to weigh the importance of quality, price, and features. Different people will come to different conclusions.
--
Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014

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On 3/9/2014 7:18 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:

Exactly and that benefits the user with a better built arbor/trunnion assembly.

That could be true but there is a lot of data that indicates SawStop is a bit ahead. Considering that I was looking at $5k+ saws a year ago I was looking pretty closely at the innards of each brand. PM, The Euro Laguna's, Felder, and Hammer were all in the hunt. General would have been had I been able to easily see one. Steel City may not be around much longer and I was never really impressed with that brand.

That is exactly true. Some people will buy an American or German product but never again after having the opportunity to use or own a Japanese product. It is all in how much value you place in safety, quality, value. etc. Safety is my personal top of the list and is the leading reason that I recently bought the industrial SS over the Laguna TS with the scoring blade.
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In conjunction with your thumb injury years ago, your woodworking is frequently used for making a living. I suspect your wife's opinion might be an additional factor. All those factors added together would be a great motivator for a SawStop purchase.
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On 3/9/2014 8:25 PM, snipped-for-privacy@none.com wrote:

She knew that I was proponent of the saw and gave me the go ahead shortly after helping me with cutting a panel last spring. ;~)
There was a planed for and anticipated incident that got her attention.
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On 3/9/2014 10:35 AM, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

Especially when paying in freedoms:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phBEhZK5pvY

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eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
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On 3/9/2014 11:13 AM, Swingman wrote:

Buying yourself a gun for protection against the possibility of being attacked or robbed is costly. But NOT nearly as costly as losing your right to own that type of protection.
Out lawing guns will only take protection away from the law biding citizens. Criminals, the people we need guns to protect ourselves from, will be the only ones that will still have guns if we lose our rights to own guns.
Some people know karate and don't need guns to begin with. These people know that the gun manufacturers are only out to make guns for profit and really don't care about your safety.
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wrote:

No one is asking you to loose your arm to buy a different brand.

Forcing SawStop on everyone will also take table saws away from a *lot* of people.

Nonsense. Karate is no replacement for a gun, no matter what Bruce Lee movies show. I suppose all gun manufacturers all delete safeties from their guns because they want them to be dangerous? Umm, get real!
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On 3/9/2014 5:09 PM, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

Not sure I follow you here, not talking TS's any more.

Still not following, no one is being forced to buy SawStop but many are actually loosing and have lost the right to own a fire arm.

Sorry, I should have use some kind of emoticon showing my tongue in my cheek.
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On 3/9/2014 10:35 AM, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

FWIW I had the same attitude and comments here as those that have not yet benefited from the SawStop or see the benefit of spending and extra thousand on a saw, 25 years ago.
You cut your self it is your own damn fault and you did something wrong. I'll be careful and practice every rule that I have read or have been taught.
Then one day I cut half my thumb off, about 15 years later SawStop is on the horizon. Today I own a SawStop. Wow what did I do wrong??? Hummmmmm obviously I did something wrong... and it took me about one year to almost cut my thumb off again before I realized what had actually happened. No set of safety rules "directly" addressed what went wrong. I can assure you that safety rules only cover the basics and it is not unusual to be in a situation that is not specifically addressed in the "rules".
Unfortunately one never really understands every conceivable way that you can be injured by the TS, that is until you have an unfortunate accident, IF you have an accident. No one ever tries to have an accident but no one lives a charmed life, one with out accidents.
It is all a matter of choice of how safe you want your equipment to be and how much you value your safety.
All things considered, and knowing what I do about why accidents are called accidents, I choose my safety over principal.
So for anyone that has not yet been convinced that a SawStop is a smart investment or an investment worth saving up for, I totally understand, I have been in your shoes.
And FWIW if any one believes that you will get a false sense of security by using a SawStop TS I can assure you that I have not. There is something about a blade spinning at 100 MPH that is very real and still very intimidating.
Why do I preach the SawStop? I am not the only one that knows that accidents happen and myself and others like me would rather pay extra to help prevent another accident from happening. I really felt pretty stupid after cutting half my thumb off. I don't want to feel that way again if there is a way to add the extra margin of safety.
Y'all be careful!
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wrote:

Completely irrelevant. Just because you bought into SawStop after 25 years, doesn't mean it's the right choice for everyone else. Saying so is pure, unadulterated, snobbery.

Of course.

No set of "rules" keeps killers from killing, either. They do help (a lot). Not all accidents are handled by SawStop, either. Dangerous tools require care.

Irrelevant. Thousands of people never do have such an accident.

...and choices you have. If I had a couple of extra thousand dollars, at the time, I *might* have chosen SawStop, too. ...or a bandsaw. 'or a Festool. ;-)

SawStop only "fixes" one of the very many accidents that are lurking for all of us. If I used my tools as a business, my choices would be very different.

That's really my point. Choice is good. In a decade, when the Gass patents run out, I may trade.

No doubt!
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On 3/9/2014 5:22 PM, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:

No,no,no, I am not saying that every one should buy the SawStop so much as I have a perspective from both sides and in my instance it was the right choice for me. As far as those that have not benefited, I am referring to those that have used a SawStop and caused it to lock up the blade to prevent a cut. I do believe that if you were to use one and actually have an accident that causes the brake to engage and you don't end up at the ER you probably would agree that the SawStop is really worth a bit more consideration.

Exactly however the SawStop does help to prevent severing a body part.

I am talking any kind of accident, tripping and falling, paper cut, etc. We all know exactly how to prevent any of these accidents but they still happen. We become complacent or something out of our control happens. The same can happen with the TS.

This is very true.

So because you mentioned Gass is this more of an emotional decision given many don't care for the way he operates? Or do you honestly believe that with patent depletion that competition will drive the prices down? Have you considered what inflation will do to the pricing?
For example and these are just close comparisons, about 10-12 years ago the PM2000 with 50" fence and 3hp motor was approximately $2000. Today Woodcraft offers it for $3364 before the current 15% sale discount. in 2000 a similar Jet was $1300 today, $2449 before the 15% sale discount. You can probably expect for prices to do the same in the next 10 years and that is going to put those particular TS's in excess of the price of an industrial SawStop today, $3999. For a more comparable Professional SawStop, $2999. today. And yes, the SawStop does compare in quality to the saws mentioned. It is not a budget built machine.
Just something to consider. Certainly the SawStop will be more expensive later on too but there is no guarantee that the competition will offer some type of similar safety feature then either, should you find that you want a saw with that feature. Something to remember, all of those competitors had the opportunity to have the SawStop technology before SawStop considered building their own saw to compete. They did not want it then, they may not want it later. Anyway none of the above is certain to happen but by the same token is not a stretch of the imagination either.
And if yu simply don't want to send any pennies Gass's way that is OK too. ;~)
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wrote:

I misread what you said. It sometimes reads like you are making that case and at other times not. I apologize if I'm putting words in your mouth.

If. If. If. But you're right. When I had an asshole (switched plates, no insurance, no DL, on parole from State Penn, etc.) run a stop sign and T-Bone me, I wished I'd stayed in bed that day. However, life is dangerous and that day paid the same as the other 10,000 days I've driven to work.

Where is your RouterStop? ...or BandStop? ...or Heavens help us all, JointerStop? Yes, that's my point. Life *is* dangerous. That's no reason to be afraid or to spend lots of money in one small area of life to make it "safe" at the expense of everything else.

Both, to be honest. I was trying to keep Gass' crony capitalism attempts out of this discussion. Competition *will* drive the SawStop *function* prices down as soon as the patents expire. Competition is good.

Understood. I don't own a PM'anything. I once was about to buy one of their drill presses but the price jumped rather big-time, just about when the Delta 18-900L came out. I liked it a lot better, for what the PM cost before the bump. The point is that you're comparing it to the most expensive, not the "best values".

They didn't want to pay Gass' asking price (not just the $$).

I don't but not because of the technology. If it were a technology issue, I'd want to see him as rich as Gates. I *like* to see rich people. I don't like to see some people get rich, though. ;-)

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On 3/9/2014 6:43 PM, snipped-for-privacy@attt.bizz wrote:
Snip

No apology necessary. I don't claim to be perfectly clear. ;~)

YES lots of If's in there... Same reason we chose to have health insurance or not, once upon a time.

Yeah but in many cases there are more obvious dangers and we try to guard against them. Nothing has really changed, there are safe guards everywhere and the vast majority are good things on their own merrit despite the fact that the government mandated them and cause all of us to pay way too much.

Well I commend you for admitting to both. You have now presented a valid reason for the way you think about the SS. And yes competition is good for all.

Sorry on the comparison, I was shooting for the best comparison of like build quality, fit, finish, features. etc.... For simply cutting a board there is not bottom limit for what will suffice.

Understood but you never know what the actual price and or concessions will be until after the contract is agreed upon by both parties.

;~) Understood.
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On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 18:09:31 -0500, Leon wrote:

Well, there is that :-).
But now that we've resurrected the Sawstop debate, would the original poster please tell us what he decided to buy. Or did we thoroughly confuse the issue?
--
Where have all the flowers gone? Pete Seeger 1919-2014

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On 3/9/2014 7:30 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:

Yeah Buckwheat, Tyrone, Max, Larry J. Which did you decide on. I think you know who may be all four of these guys.
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On 3/9/2014 6:34 PM, Leon wrote:

I have a Unisaw with which I am well pleased...except for dust collection. *If* I should decide that I want a new table saw I can tell you right now that dust collection will be the deciding factor after comparable quality.
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Say Amen!
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