Table Saw purchase question

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On 3/9/2014 6:47 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

I had in mind the Unisaws and Powermatics that seem to be still selling. I question the comparability of a Sears $299 table saw.
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On 3/9/2014 7:06 PM, Max wrote:

That is kind of a jerk knee question. A bit of research would provide those answers.
But,
Delta by a thread. They are but a small fraction in size and in offerings compared to what they offered 5~8 years ago.
Have you actually asked a store that sells SawStop how the SS units sell compared to the other brands?
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Leon wrote:

My local Woodcraft store says nobody buys anything else. I don't believe them.

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On 3/9/2014 7:52 PM, Bill wrote:

You may have been taking them a bit too literally. ;~) More believable, my Woodcraft says that SawStop out sells all the other brands combined. Then again Woodcraft is pricey and their prime target customer may be willing to spend more for something that they want.
When I was shopping and ready to pull the trigger on the industrial SS I was looking at the unit in the store shop. Another customer was considering the same industrial SS. Mass is always a good thing on a quality saw, less vibration. I told the guy to lift the right extension table. It would not budge with out considerable effort. He bought the saw. This particular saw weighs just shy of 700lbs with the 52" fence. Ironically the hydraulic lift mobile base that SS sells for the industrial saw moves the saw with a push of the finger. I have to be careful not to leave my saw unattended in the lifted position. My garage has a slight slope towards the street and it will roll out of the garage on it's own.
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Leon wrote:

They eventually moved most of the other saws out of the place. My thinking is that their commissions and markups are much higher on SawStop. They act in a way which is consistent with that. I don't see them doing any other sort of table saw demonstrations on Saturday morning! I don't begrudge them anything, I'm sure it's a tough business to maintain. I could do with out the "selling by fear" sales tactic.
Bill

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Unfortunately, until SawStop patents expire and competitors get onboard, fear always will be one of the greatest purchaser motivators.
It's usually only for the more discerning, hard core or professional woodworkers, that fit, finish and build quality of the SawStops comes into play.
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On 3/9/2014 8:23 PM, Bill wrote:

It could well be that the fear of a lawsuit for selling something a jury would deem unsafe is at least part of that reason.
Most of the jury pool is sufficiently dumbed down to believe anything a lawyer tells them; and it is unlikely that they have ever operated a table saw, or even seen one, since shop classes were considered too dangerous when they were little yuppies-in-training.
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I've been wondering. We've all heard details of the law suits where they've awarded large money amounts in non-SawStop tablesaw injuries.
Has anybody seen any statistics where awards have been minimal in other similar types of law suits?
In other words, how many similar suits have been a failure because jurors were not sufficiently dumbed down?
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On 3/9/2014 8:23 PM, Bill wrote:

Increased profit could be it. One thing to consider however and unless something has changed in the last year, Woodcraft does not stock SawStop industrial saws in their stores. They have plenty of the rest but when I ordered my industrial version I got the distinct impression that SawStop wanted it that way. My saw came directly from SawStop to Woodcraft to me only after I ordered. Additionally one cannot order an industrial version from a dealer that is not in his or her state. You have to order from a dealer in your state. As far as the Pro and Contractor versions go you can order them from whom ever yu like.
So with that in mind if buying an industrial SS there is no advantage in delivery time, all things being equal, over another brand that is sold by a the same dealer.
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"Bill" wrote

I can't speak for woodcraft. They are a bit pricy, but do sell some quality products. And any retail store that sells to a demographic that is up the ladder from hobbyists or home repair guys wants to project an image. With products to match that image.
I find it interesting that a store is selling a quality product and you reduce this whole marketing and retailing approach as a "selling by fear" sales tactic. Maybe it is just a sell a quality product because it makes sense for our demographic and targeted market. Remember, you can get the cheaper saw many other places. Not that many places to get a SawStop.
You seem strongly emotionally involved in this. Do you do this kind of thing with other retailers? Or do you just reserve this kind of hostility for Woodcraft? Or is it a SawStop thing?
You have to remember that the retail world is changing, big time. Office Max is substantially reducing their stores. They do half of their business online now. And almost a quarter of their in store sales is selling computer printing supplies. You don't need a big box store to sell printing supplies. Radio Shack is closing one quarter of their stores. I don't see a future for Radio Shack. Retail is tough, and becoming more so every day.
Now, I don't want to make you consider things that you find totally objectionable. But consider this. If Woodcraft fallowed a strategy that you would find pleasing, they very well may be out of business in the near future. You have to let them do what they have to survive in a increasing competitive environment.
I also feel left out in various businesses product offerings. There has been a number of innovative restaurants that have opened near me that I just loved. I loved the food, environment, pricing, etc. And the all went out of business. I do like barbeque joints though. I can bitch and complain all I want. But guess what? I am not part of a demographic that would support such a an eating establishment. If there were more people like me, those place would still be in business. Without sufficient numbers, these bright, creative ideas perish.
Sooo.........., I bitch and complain and get by.
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On Mon, 10 Mar 2014 12:03:44 -0400, "Lee Michaels" <leemichaels*nadaspam* at comcast dot net> wrote:

Huh? Of the four places I frequent in the Atlanta area, three carry SawStop. The same retailers who carry Festool. ;-) Even Amazon carries SawStop (sold by Amazon, not one of the other three).
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On 3/10/2014 10:03 AM, Lee Michaels wrote:

Me too. ;-)
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Lee Michaels wrote:

That is interesting. I guess I'm not really in their demographic. I'm not presently in the market for any Festool products or any new $300 hand planes. The only reason I go more than once of year is because of a carving group that meets there. I do take an interst in the way that all people who market or sell to me, do it. For instance, the observation you made above adds to my insight. When I wrote, I was not thinking of them projecting an image. My guess was that they were putting some of those products there to make their other prices appear lower (that's a common tactic too). Generally, given the opportunity to pay to project an image myself, I go the other way. Others get caught up in labels, etc. We weren't all born with a silver spoon...
Bill
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On 3/9/2014 8:17 PM, Leon wrote:

Be sure to nudge it in this direction should that happen. I know it's 24 miles, but I'd hate to see you get hurt on a SawStop trying to push it uphill. ;)
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On 3/9/2014 8:29 PM, Swingman wrote:

Ill certainly let you know if I need help getting it back up the ledge. LOL
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On 3/9/2014 8:52 PM, Bill wrote:

They don't even list Delta on their website, but lots of SawStop.
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On 3/9/2014 9:20 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Retail 101, you sell and stock to meet demand.
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On 3/10/2014 12:27 AM, Leon wrote:

Possibly another economic factor too. Lawyers tend to drag everyone into the suits that has loose change in their pockets. "Woodcraft knowingly sold this XYZ brand to my client knowing he could cut his penis off if he jumped on top of the saw"
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On 3/10/2014 10:28 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Yes that could explain why they are pushing that particular product but I'm sure that you could still buy any brand that they carry and or have a relationship with if the customer wanted that. Either way the customer is getting a quality product if he is buying SawStop. It is not like they are pushing some thing like what you would find at Harbor Freight or Sears as their line of preference.
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On Sun, 09 Mar 2014 22:20:10 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

And lots of Powermatic, and a couple of Jet, ...
<http://www.woodcraft.com/category/4/1004064/2081108/Cabinet%20Table% 20Saws.aspx?start6>
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