Bullshit. Like most suck-ups, you're talking out both sides of your mouth. You admit that price is an issue and that there is a decision to be made, yet you denigrate those who don't agree with a choice you've NEVER MADE and probably never will.
I don't care that some love SawStop. Sobeit. Their decision. However, when some know-nothing jumps into the fray, talking out both sided of his mouth, it's really funny.
FWIW I had the same attitude and comments here as those that have not yet benefited from the SawStop or see the benefit of spending and extra thousand on a saw, 25 years ago.
You cut your self it is your own damn fault and you did something wrong. I'll be careful and practice every rule that I have read or have been taught.
Then one day I cut half my thumb off, about 15 years later SawStop is on the horizon. Today I own a SawStop. Wow what did I do wrong??? Hummmmmm obviously I did something wrong... and it took me about one year to almost cut my thumb off again before I realized what had actually happened. No set of safety rules "directly" addressed what went wrong. I can assure you that safety rules only cover the basics and it is not unusual to be in a situation that is not specifically addressed in the "rules".
Unfortunately one never really understands every conceivable way that you can be injured by the TS, that is until you have an unfortunate accident, IF you have an accident. No one ever tries to have an accident but no one lives a charmed life, one with out accidents.
It is all a matter of choice of how safe you want your equipment to be and how much you value your safety.
All things considered, and knowing what I do about why accidents are called accidents, I choose my safety over principal.
So for anyone that has not yet been convinced that a SawStop is a smart investment or an investment worth saving up for, I totally understand, I have been in your shoes.
And FWIW if any one believes that you will get a false sense of security by using a SawStop TS I can assure you that I have not. There is something about a blade spinning at 100 MPH that is very real and still very intimidating.
Why do I preach the SawStop? I am not the only one that knows that accidents happen and myself and others like me would rather pay extra to help prevent another accident from happening. I really felt pretty stupid after cutting half my thumb off. I don't want to feel that way again if there is a way to add the extra margin of safety.
Buying yourself a gun for protection against the possibility of being attacked or robbed is costly. But NOT nearly as costly as losing your right to own that type of protection.
Out lawing guns will only take protection away from the law biding citizens. Criminals, the people we need guns to protect ourselves from, will be the only ones that will still have guns if we lose our rights to own guns.
Some people know karate and don't need guns to begin with. These people know that the gun manufacturers are only out to make guns for profit and really don't care about your safety.
Not to pick nits but in your initial "wonder" you didn't qualify your comment by limiting your missing fingers to "people here". What I'm alluding to is the number of woodworkers who have cut off, or nearly so, a finger when using a table saw. The statistic "might" be a persuasive number when selling a potential finger saver device. I'm not attempting to denigrate the SawStop. What I am suggesting is that it is not only a safety decision but an economic one.
I'm part of the consensus. I don't envision myself ever getting a new tablesaw, but if I did, it would be SawStop. Well made tool and the safety is a bonus.
That said, if I ever opened a hot dog cart, I'd cut them with a knife as the SawStop would be too time consuming for that operation.
No one is asking you to loose your arm to buy a different brand.
Forcing SawStop on everyone will also take table saws away from a
*lot* of people.
Nonsense. Karate is no replacement for a gun, no matter what Bruce Lee movies show. I suppose all gun manufacturers all delete safeties from their guns because they want them to be dangerous? Umm, get real!
Completely irrelevant. Just because you bought into SawStop after 25 years, doesn't mean it's the right choice for everyone else. Saying so is pure, unadulterated, snobbery.
Of course.
No set of "rules" keeps killers from killing, either. They do help (a lot). Not all accidents are handled by SawStop, either. Dangerous tools require care.
Irrelevant. Thousands of people never do have such an accident.
...and choices you have. If I had a couple of extra thousand dollars, at the time, I *might* have chosen SawStop, too. ...or a bandsaw. 'or a Festool. ;-)
SawStop only "fixes" one of the very many accidents that are lurking for all of us. If I used my tools as a business, my choices would be very different.
That's really my point. Choice is good. In a decade, when the Gass patents run out, I may trade.
No,no,no, I am not saying that every one should buy the SawStop so much as I have a perspective from both sides and in my instance it was the right choice for me. As far as those that have not benefited, I am referring to those that have used a SawStop and caused it to lock up the blade to prevent a cut. I do believe that if you were to use one and actually have an accident that causes the brake to engage and you don't end up at the ER you probably would agree that the SawStop is really worth a bit more consideration.
Exactly however the SawStop does help to prevent severing a body part.
I am talking any kind of accident, tripping and falling, paper cut, etc. We all know exactly how to prevent any of these accidents but they still happen. We become complacent or something out of our control happens. The same can happen with the TS.
This is very true.
So because you mentioned Gass is this more of an emotional decision given many don't care for the way he operates? Or do you honestly believe that with patent depletion that competition will drive the prices down? Have you considered what inflation will do to the pricing?
For example and these are just close comparisons, about 10-12 years ago the PM2000 with 50" fence and 3hp motor was approximately $2000. Today Woodcraft offers it for $3364 before the current 15% sale discount. in 2000 a similar Jet was $1300 today, $2449 before the 15% sale discount. You can probably expect for prices to do the same in the next 10 years and that is going to put those particular TS's in excess of the price of an industrial SawStop today, $3999. For a more comparable Professional SawStop, $2999. today. And yes, the SawStop does compare in quality to the saws mentioned. It is not a budget built machine.
Just something to consider. Certainly the SawStop will be more expensive later on too but there is no guarantee that the competition will offer some type of similar safety feature then either, should you find that you want a saw with that feature. Something to remember, all of those competitors had the opportunity to have the SawStop technology before SawStop considered building their own saw to compete. They did not want it then, they may not want it later. Anyway none of the above is certain to happen but by the same token is not a stretch of the imagination either.
And if yu simply don't want to send any pennies Gass's way that is OK too. ;~)
I think where you and I may be at odds on this discussion is that you might think that "I" think the SawStop should be in every ones shop. I don't believe that to the extent that everyone must have one in their shop. I think it would be good if the competition would have partnered with SawStop to begin with and then every one could have had the choice of having the technology "or not" in the brands of their choice.
I prefer to leave the political aspect out of the discussion.
I misread what you said. It sometimes reads like you are making that case and at other times not. I apologize if I'm putting words in your mouth.
If. If. If. But you're right. When I had an asshole (switched plates, no insurance, no DL, on parole from State Penn, etc.) run a stop sign and T-Bone me, I wished I'd stayed in bed that day. However, life is dangerous and that day paid the same as the other 10,000 days I've driven to work.
Where is your RouterStop? ...or BandStop? ...or Heavens help us all, JointerStop? Yes, that's my point. Life *is* dangerous. That's no reason to be afraid or to spend lots of money in one small area of life to make it "safe" at the expense of everything else.
Both, to be honest. I was trying to keep Gass' crony capitalism attempts out of this discussion. Competition *will* drive the SawStop
*function* prices down as soon as the patents expire. Competition is good.
Understood. I don't own a PM'anything. I once was about to buy one of their drill presses but the price jumped rather big-time, just about when the Delta 18-900L came out. I liked it a lot better, for what the PM cost before the bump. The point is that you're comparing it to the most expensive, not the "best values".
They didn't want to pay Gass' asking price (not just the $$).
I don't but not because of the technology. If it were a technology issue, I'd want to see him as rich as Gates. I *like* to see rich people. I don't like to see some people get rich, though. ;-)
Well way way back when I thought it was a good enough idea to make mandatory. I have changed my mind on that given the implications that if you give them an inch they will take a mile. I never liked the method of the product being marketed after being turned down by the other builders. But I am quite flexible in my thinking. If you can show me valid reasoning I will consider it but I prefer to leave the emotional side of reasoning to my wife, and she would whole heartily agree.
Well that is here say. Since no actual contracts were negotiated no one really knows what the contracts would have said. Naturally a manufacturer will ask the highest price that they think they can get. And one of the manufacturers did agree to the some kind of terms but something, and no one knows what that some thing was, did cause the deal to fall through the cracks. I highly suspect there was some agreement, by those that were approached, to not accept the offers and force this new guy out. Little did any of them know just how successful Gass would be in producing his own product and is also suspect they are all probably rethinking the opportunity missed. In a nut shell no one knows what any of the negotiated deals would have been.
Perhaps impossible for you but I have no problem with simply looking at the product. Now if you really want to get pissed off lets consider the fact that we no longer have a choice of buying health care or not. At least with the SawStop the intentions were not to mandate that every citizen of the US be required to buy a SawStop even if they did not ever have any intention of buying any woodworking equipment what so ever.
That's certainly true. It *has* to be heavier to take the shock when/if the brake fires.
But I worked for a power tool retailer for a few years and had the opportunity to examine (and @#$% assemble) several brands and types of table saws. I think the cabinet saws from Powermatic, General, and maybe even Steel City, are equal or better in quality to the Sawstop.
A prospective buyer has to weigh the importance of quality, price, and features. Different people will come to different conclusions.
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