Table saw accident

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On 5/27/2012 12:32 PM, Steve Turner wrote:

Actually, you nailed it previously. You have now experienced the fact that some of the participation here has been reduced to taking trivial exception to your statement(s), then proceeding to quibble to the point that it becomes _your_ fault in the caviler's publicly expressed mind.
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On 5/27/2012 11:10 AM, Swingman wrote:

That is the absolute safest way and should the multi-material insert shatter for what ever reason you are also covered.
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--snip--
Good video, good advice, Karl.
-- When a quiet man is moved to passion, it seems the very earth will shake. -- Stephanie Barron (Something for the Powers That Be to remember, eh?)
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Swingman wrote:

None taken. I haven't used a TS since high school, so I'm quite open to learning good technique. I watched the video twice, it has "everything" one would need to know (and more technique than most folks probably use).
I'm still getting by with an old, but solid, CS I picked up at auction for about $10. No one seems to like tailed-tools (but I do, since I don't use them everyday, or even every week). It worked on sawing the workbench parts (almost done). We finally cleaned-up, touched-up, and hung today the 4'x3' framed mirror I asked about last month. Inexpensive wax-like "blend sticks", worked nicely for touching-up some bare gouge marks. I only used the black one and got an "invisible" repair. I have also had good luck, on another piece, with the "colored markers" you mentioned.
Bill
<snip>

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On 5/27/2012 10:22 PM, Bill wrote:

Well! He wasn't wearing ear muffs, using a face mask, gas mask, blade guard, chain link gloves, or even a saw stop. He was wasting a good size hunk of tree which could only result in more carbon dioxide and less oxygen, so I hardly think his technique had "EVERYTHING" covered. Not by a long, hand ringing shot.
What really bothers me is after over 50+ years of using notched push sticks, often two at a time, I find out they are sooner or later going to rip off a fing-ee or two when they explode...
To be perfectly safe, he should have asked his neighbor/wife/mom to do the dirty deed whilst he hid in the wood shed, or watched re-runs of Law and Order.

Ignore me at your own risk...
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Jack
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On 5/26/2012 8:48 PM, dpb wrote:

Except that many modern fences are not attached at the back, meaning there is likelihood that there could be some movement of the fence, and thus the insert, during raising of the blade.
While your above method will almost certainly reduce the chances of a catastrophe like the one described, it may also mean you end up with a less than perfect "zero clearance" for obvious reasons of slight movement.
I do know for a fact that those with a UniFence will not be able to use this method with complete satisfaction.
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On 5/27/2012 11:18 AM, Swingman wrote: ...

Never seen it...

Perhaps altho I can't envision the fence being that flexible and being able of providing "complete satisfaction" in normal operations if so.
I've the original PM 66 fence. If the UniFence is indeed that unstable, throw a clamp on the ass end to hold it down.
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On 5/27/2012 1:57 PM, dpb wrote:

...
Movement where? The insert is in the cutout in the saw; all that's needed is enough downward pressure to keep it from coming out during the cut. It isn't going anywhere laterally unless it doesn't fit the opening in which case it won't be precise, anyway.
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On 5/27/2012 2:47 PM, dpb wrote:

Don't take my word for it. Watch the video link provided, where the guy is indeed using a PM 66 fence. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v
Z9QaOeUxM
FastForward to 2:25, if so inclined.
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On 5/27/2012 3:06 PM, Swingman wrote: ...

...
That's their equivalent of a Biesemeyer; not the original, original.
The original PM 66 fence is clamped both ends; that's what I'm used to. If not what you got then find another method; that's not rocket science, either.
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On 5/27/2012 6:18 PM, dpb wrote: ...

...
Similar vintage; same fence...
http://vintagemachinery.org/photoindex/detail.aspx?id 54
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On 5/27/2012 6:27 PM, dpb wrote:

But unless the fence actually makes contact with the table surface there is still, although less, room for the insert to lift.
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On 5/28/2012 9:08 AM, Leon wrote:

He did say in his original post to use a shim to keep the insert from raising up.
Nonetheless, a shim still won't keep modern fences that are only attached on one end from raising up.
And that ain't "rocket science" either ...
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On 5/28/2012 9:19 AM, Swingman wrote:

Are we maybe worrying this problem to death? Seems to me that all the back and forth has been enough to insure that everyone knows you need a snug fit to prevent any movement on the horizontal plane and something to prevent vertical movement.
This can be accomplished in any number of ways including with a fence that doesn't lock down at the rear. Got a clamp handy?<g>
Getting right down to it while it would be crude and inelegant to the max, how about setting a length of 4"x4" on top of the insert and set a concrete block atop that? Then, and this would apply to ANY means you choose to use, raise the blade SLOOOOOOWWWWWLLLLY through the zero clearance insert.
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On 5/28/2012 9:38 AM, Unquestionably Confused wrote:

LOL ... both of your points above have been previously addressed a number of times, AND suddenly _you're_ concerned with "worrying the problem to death" by bringing them up, again? ;)

Sure, as long as I can use your $100+ carbide blade to do that ...
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On Mon, 28 May 2012 09:38:59 -0500, Unquestionably Confused wrote:

Concrete and table saws don't strike me as a happy pair. But a 2x4 or 4x4 on top of the insert and clamped to the table, or to the rip fence if it's fastened at both ends, would work fine.
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On 5/28/2012 11:14 AM, Larry Blanchard wrote:

Read that paragraph again, Larry.
Twas hyperbole, that's all. Just meant weight on the 4x4 hold down other than one's hand.
And, as the blade would be rising into a 4x4 (as previously stated), I would have no problem lending my Forrest WWII to the scene as Swingman suggests.
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On 5/28/2012 9:08 AM, Leon wrote: ...

Reread the original dam'd post, Leon. :(
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Thanks Karl, though I've been successful with the fence method, but there is alway the one time. Working as a commercial electrician after many safety meeting had it drilled into my head to not stand in front of 480 volt services when first turned on. They occasionally explode. So stand to the side or best option is have the apprentice do it. I thank you for the link as I prefer to keep the functioning parts of my body out of the danger zone.
Mike M
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On 5/27/2012 1:57 PM, dpb wrote:

Well, you can't say that any longer: :)
https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopJustStuff#5747297982693130738
As the caption says, this insert had only minor damage from movement when being cut, and it is therefore still in use.
The results was not acceptable for a previous "zero clearance" insert when initially attempting to use a UniFence for performing the same operation.
My point being that I quickly found it to be much simpler and effective, for both the operation and the equipment, to forego using this type of fence in that manner, and to double clamp a sacrificial caul across the insert instead.

Well, the operation is arguably intended to be done with as much precision as possible ... otherwise we would not be using the term " _zero_ clearance" insert, eh? :)

I would not say the UniFence is "unstable", but it does move vertically on the "ass end", as do just about all TS fences that are only attached on one end.
You're right, putting a clamp in that location on a precision fence of this type would undoubtedly work, but you'd want to insure that it was done carefully so it didn't bind the mechanism, and possibly damage that fence's built in precision.
Once again, your solution is certainly much safer than what was represented and is certainly viable if the equipment can handle it.
Obviously a drawback to the UniFence, just like I have found it unsuitable for hold downs, like "board buddies".
YMMV ...
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