T5 vs. T8 fluorescent lights

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Brian Elfert wrote:

A lot depends on hours of operation and ambient temperature.
A 96" HO tube has better terminations than a 48" standard, but usually more than double the cost.
Life of either one is usually quoted at 20,000 hours.
If you are looking at a typical home workshop type application, consider the following:
2-3 hours/night, 5 maybe 6 days a week will be about 20 hours per week.
20 hours per week, 50 weeks a year = 1,000 hours/year or 20 year life.
How long the system lasts becomes moot with numbers like that.
Things like inital cost, power costs, winter time temperatures, become signficant issues.
The very first one you want to address is temperature since light output is so temperature dependant.
If you need insulation, that is ahead of lighting, IMHO.
Notice how everything I touch turns into a system<G>?
It's just the nature of the beast.
Lew
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The shop will be fully insulated, heated, and cooled. Temps will be kept at 45 to 50 degrees in the winter.
I definitely want T8 fixtures with electronic ballast. 4' or 8' is the real question. The 8' fixtures are more than twice as much as 4' fixtures from what I have found to date.
Brian Elfert
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Brian Elfert wrote:

Makes sense, they put out twice as much light.
Guess it gets down to a "what flavor do I like" decision.
Good luck.
Lew
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writes:

Double check price and availability of bulbs Brian. Not to say they're not available, but which is more convenient, more common, cheaper, etc.?
One consideration I found worthwhile with the 4 foot fixtures is that I can turn off fixtures I don't always need. Mine all have chain pulls on them. For normal garage lighting I might get by on only half of my lights. Easy to turn off the ones I don't want and still maintain the ease of hitting the wall switch to light the bay to the normally needed amount of light.
BTW - did I tell ya that my freakin' garage is *bright* now?
--

-Mike-
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writes:

Brian:
I've gotten completely lost following the lumens, watts, 5's, 8's, rows, and... man, my head is starting to hurt. But... I just changed the lighting in my garage/body shop/woodshop from incandescent to florescent. I originally had 3 100W bulbs in each of the three bays. The garage is 3 bays (36x26) but only two bays are real car bays. The third is where I keep all of my tools since it always seems to be too cluttered to actually use any of them in that bay.
I bought the basic 0 degree 4 foot, double tube fixtures from Lowes - $20 each. I used standard 40W, soft white tubes in the fixtures . I put 6 fixtures in the two car bays. They run in two rows, from the garage doors to the back wall, just inside of where the door tracks run. That puts them roughly 8 feet (or a bit more) apart. End to end, each fixture is 32" from its neighbor. I had to start about 52" from the front wall of the garage due to clearance of the door as it opens/closes. I didn't care exactly what distance the last light ended up being from the back wall. My ceiling is 9' 2" high.
What I can tell you is that each bay is lit up like glory itself. It took a little getting used to - the light is so different in color from the yellow of incandescent. But in a short time it became quite natural seeming. The best part - no shadows. I mean - no shadows. I don't care what you do, you can't produce a shadow that obstructs your view. It was shocking to really see everything that was cluttered on top of my table saw - and I'm not kidding.
I priced 8 foot fixtures and bulbs but all I could find locally - without a lot of shopping around, was HO fixtures and the bulbs will take you to the poor house. Not worth it in my opinion.
I wondered about color correction since I paint a lot of cars, but to be honest, I'm not going to sweat it anymore. The light and the color are so much better than what I was used to that I'll just stick with what I have.
My neighbors have made laughing comments about the light coming from my garage now. I mean - it's a lot of light. My eyes are going the wrong way fast and I just can't see like I used to in low light conditions anymore. Not a problem anymore.
So - I don't know what the lumens are, don't care. Don't care what the watts are. Don't care about 5's, 8's or 12's. I got light now and it was quite reasonable the way I did it (price wise).
Hope this sheds some light on the discussion.
--

-Mike-
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On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 19:46:08 -0500, Mike Marlow wrote:

As I mentioned here once before, try a couple of the GE kitchen and bath bulbs in one of the fixtures. You'll like it.
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Mike Marlow wrote:

You get the message.
For your application, you could care less what the true color is, but you sure care that it is repeatable, 24/7.
Have done some work on "color tables" as they are called.
Requires a controlled temperature, a specific set of lamps that have been precalibrated, with known hours of operation, and a whole bunch of other things.
People who need a color table are ink manufacturers, greeting card manufacturers, etc.
IOW, the print portion of the graphic arts industry.
Doing a color table is strictly for the prestige.
Lots of time for small amounts of money.
Lew
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This one tells me you have been around lighting. I duck and run when I hear full spectrum/natural lighting. Mike M
On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 04:13:00 GMT, Lew Hodgett

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Mike M wrote:

Don't remind me<G>.
Lew
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On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 20:51:20 GMT, Lew Hodgett

Thanks, Lew, for the info.
Ricky
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On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 20:51:20 +0000, Lew Hodgett wrote:

Don't know where you came up with that number, but it sounds golden and looks to solve my own lighting questions. I'm in a basement with a 7' ceiling so I should be fine with anywhere from 1/2 w / sq ft (~50 fc?)to the full watt (slightly greater than 100 fc).
Right?
Bill
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W Canaday wrote:

7' mtg ht makes getting a good lighting job tougher than 8', but it can be done.
Use single tube fixtures and keep rows of fixtures no more thyan 48" apart.
Good luck.
Lew
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On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 19:56:14 +0000, Lew Hodgett wrote:

I took a closer look, got measurements and dirtied a piece of graph paper. I have 372 sq ft on a 12 x 31 rectangle. That argues for 10 x 40w tubes. After considering the effect of 80x (2x40w) directly over my lathe, I don't think that 400w is going to cut it. I decided to put a row of single tubes 2' away from each wall and end with a row down the middle (lengthwise) offset by 2' to balance things out. The rows are designed to be no more than 48" apart, although a couple of obstructions (plumbing) will cause this to vary somewhat. This will yield 15 tubes for a total of 600w general lighting. There will be additional point-of-use task lighting at the bandsaw, lathe and drill press. Possibly also at the table saw over the router table wing.
All lamps are "daylight" spectrum, 6500k, 2325 lumens.
I'm tired of squinting in the dungeon.
Bill
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W Canaday wrote:

It's not rocket science.
Play with several layouts before you commit.
Don't forget you can use supplemental task lamps for specific tasks.
Uniformity of the lighting is the controlling fsctor.
Have fun.
Lew
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I started to scan about ten pages from the illuminating engineering handbook, but realized no one does them by hand anymore. Its either rule of thumb, or we use software. Most distributers, have access to design software. I just ran it out real quick on one program 15 2/lamp 4' T8 fixtures for 80' candles, and 20 will get you a little over 100 FC. That assumes 70% ceiling, 60% wall and 20% floor reflectance. Also these are maintained FC, initial light levels will be higher. 2.5' work plane. 3 rows of 5 8' between columns and 5' between rows. Assume this is the center point of fixture. If I have time I'll run it on my best program and turn it out as a cad drawing and copy it to abp group. Newest program even does visual renderings of the interior space.
Mike M
On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 13:26:37 -0600, Ricky Robbins

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Mike M wrote:

<snip>
That is known as the LGB theory of lighting design.
You bring in the out of town lighting guru from the factory.
Take guru to job site for an inspection.
Guru looks around and says, "Put luminaires here, here and here", pointing towards ceiling.
"Now, Lets Get a Beer."
Lew
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Thats how I ended up with my own software, I'd send a parking lot to be redone in showing the existing pole locations and they would do a new lay out. I'd end up with poles in the roadways. LOL On the interior jobs they never considered the beam and obstacle locations. In the end you still have to sit down and use your common sense. I usually look a lot more at the uniformity then the actuall FC and try to consider the Visual comfort on low ceilings. What I threw out earlier was just a quick estimator program. MikeM
On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 22:09:54 GMT, Lew Hodgett

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Mike M wrote:

Ye gads, unless it was a car lot, 4:1 pole spacing ruled for parking lots as long as the poles were 40 ft or less.
Roadway jobs, now that is a whole nother kettle of fish which I avoided like it was the plague.
Times have sure changed I guess.
Lew
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In reefkeeping, T5's are the new black. They allow for more light with a smaller fixture, the bulbs last quite a bit longer than T-8's, are cheaper to operate than MH, and put out more light than a compact fluorescent.
That said, the light available is more a product of the reflector chosen than the bulb. The t-5 allows a smaller reflector that bounces more light down into the tank.
I have T-5's over my tank and track lighting in my shop. It allows me to put light exactly where I need it with no shadows (and I got 15 fixtures on Ebay for 10.00 so the price was right)
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> > The 8' ceiling is the controlling factor in the above application. > >
Lew,
could impose on your previous life one more time...
If a guy had 29 x 51 shed with 12' ceilings (white steel panels on ceiling and walls, insulated) hoping for 80-100 FC maintained.
How many would you recommend ? and what layout ?
(my flavor would be leaning towards 2 fluorescent 40 watt lamps/fixture mounted to the ceiling) but if you have a better idea for 12' ceilings, please let me know what you would do.
TIA Tom

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