Soft close hinge question

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On 3/4/2016 12:11 PM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

My experience with products like UltraStock, Medite and Medex, all MDF products, has been different.
Leon will attest to the fact that I left a piece of 3/4 UltraStock mdf in a clients birdbath fountain for a week, and it came out looking like it went in ... pristine.
Also left a 4x4 cutoff of UltraStock out in the weather, leaning against my fence for well over a year. Used it later for jigs and it was bit weather stained, but still flat, with no ragged or blown edges, or warp in evidence.
Also used Medex for 20' run of tall sliding doors in a set of carport cabinets (open on two sides) quite a few years back. Still looking new and standing the test of time thus far.
Basically, wouldn't hesitate to use those type products in an average garage environment in this locale.
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On 3/4/2016 1:22 PM, Swingman wrote:

I built a lazy Susan with that same water resistant MDF scraps that we used on that kitchen job. The lazy Susan sat on the grass in the back yard with my water hose reel mounted on top.
It was rained on regularity and sat on the damp grass every morning. I eventually disassembled it because the set up did not work like I wanted but the MDF was still pretty decent looking. I did not throw away the MDF.
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On 3/4/2016 12:11 PM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Thank you Robert!
A couple of things, the customer is going to paint the cabinets.
BUT my last couple of purchases of domestic, paint quality birch plywood ended up with the outer veneer lifting with the water based primer. I was not happy but worked around that.
I think I will look into the MDO instead for the large cabinet panels and shelves.
And I think the tall door may become two shorter doors.
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On 3/4/2016 4:19 PM, Leon wrote:

MDO works well, as long as you're prepared to do edge banding, only very light easing/no round overs (without a lot of sizing/prepping edges for painting).
Check availability carefully..
Last time I used MDO, Clark's was about the only place that carried it in 3/4".
Hardwood Products didn't carry it then, maybe they do now? It's not on my price sheet.
Home Depot carried it at one time, but only 3/8". That might have changed.
Dixie lumber used to carry it also, but haven't seen much around lately.
I managed to order the last 3/4 MDO I used through Detering, much cheaper than Clark's.
And, let me know what you find out with regard to price availability. :)
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On 3/4/16 7:27 PM, Swingman wrote:

Have you guys seem this stuff? http://www.panguaneta.com/en/classic-plywood/pioppo-mdf-plywood I saw it used a could weeks ago and it freaked me out. Advantages on veneer plywood plus the smooth paint-ability of hard mdf?
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On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 8:07:03 PM UTC-6, -MIKE- wrote:

It has been around for years. Sign makers use it, it winds up in boats and marine applications, etc. I first saw it when it was being used by a sign company and they gave me some cutoffs. One groups of cut offs had smooth wood on both sides over resin soaked/heat/pressure/treated plies of veneer, and was made to be painted or stained. Some of the other pieces had a har d, colored acrylic board bonded to it. The sign guys told me that they cou ld also get that same wood or plastic exterior ply with an aluminum core!
Look for it under its old name of "hdo" or high density overlay. I is also called "sign board" or some such by some.
BTW... it is nasty expensive in some of its forms, so not really too practi cal except for its own specialty use.
Robert
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On 3/4/2016 7:27 PM, Swingman wrote:

I have decided to use MDO instead of the paint grade birch plywood for the panels of the cabinet and the shelves. It was probably a fluke that the veneer on my last PG plywood lifted after priming with water base, but I don't want to take a chance on that happening again.

Right after reading Roberts comment about using it I called Hardwood Products. They have it in 3/4" only at $64.95 per sheet. I need 4 sheets and I'll gladly eat the difference in profit. The domestic PG was 44.95.

And now that we are talking different plywood, MDF, and MDO this reminded me of some oak veneered stain grade plywood I bought many many years ago from HW Products. I have never seen it since.
First outer ply veneers were oak, naturally, immediately under, on each side, was a layer of MDF, and then the 3 center plys of what ever wood is normally used. That stuff was crazy flat and no voids under the outer veneer. And it cut just a little bit easier on my old 1hp Craftsman TS.
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On 3/5/2016 8:20 AM, Leon wrote:
> It was probably a fluke that the veneer on my last PG plywood lifted > after priming with water base, but I don't want to take a chance on > that happening again.
I think you got bit by the push to reduce formaldehyde in glues these days.

Last time I looked they still have it. IIRC, it's called "combined-core" or "combination core".
Spece'ed a LEED kitchen project with it once and it was nixed due to the formaldehyde content at the time ... ruined their little warm fuzzies.
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http://www.menards.com/main/search.html?search=mdo
Menards, evidently all over the northern states carries it.
HD says to talk to the lumber dept exec in your area.
I have been looking for MDO since finding out it was best for painted cabinets as it had a flat surface, where even the best plywood's when painted showed all the variances under the skin. :(
I am going to check around here. Roseberg, Oregon is just past the state line a bit, and I think we should get first dibs. LOL.
MDF unless you get the stuff made for bath rooms is like regular particle board as to usability.
As you can tell, I am on the hunt too. The stuff from Italy for painted cabinets, or for veneering looks promising.
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On 3/5/2016 10:47 AM, OFWW wrote:

As Captain Obvious sez: "Not all MDF is created equal." ;)
Not directed towards you, but there is a general lack of experience with the various grades and "usability" of the product, particularly when reading internet posts.
Even the cheaper grades of MDF are more dimensionally stable over time in the same environment than most general use and cabinet grade plywoods, and have some more desirable properties:
It machines well, lends itself well to surface and edge profile/contour routing, finishes better (with no telegraphing of subsurface defects as I've had with cheaper grades of MDO with thinner veneer), repairs easier (Bondo is magic), is more sustainable, and when properly finished, can be more cost effective for an equally beautiful fit and finish in certain interiors tasks, like interior doors of all kinds, even in uninsulated interior environments, like a garage.
(Folks don't often realize just how many high dollar, paint grade, paneled interior doors have been made of MDF for quite a few years).
http://www.simpsondoor.com/door-series/interior/mdf/
Not to mention its use in jigs and fixtures, where dimensional stability is paramount.
The thread started out about "garage cabinets".
I've built/caused to be built many garage cabinets, some using MDF doors when the design and budget precluded more expensive alternatives, including for my own shop.
I can say unequivocally that I have had fewer problems with even the cheaper grade MDF doors warping/bowing than with many all wood doors in the same environment.
Granted, in most cases for MDF interior doors in both kitchens, baths and garages, I've spec'ed the best grades/types of MDF, even it it had to be ordered at extra cost.
However, being a cheap bastard when it comes to eating my own dog food, these cheap, Home Depot purchased MDF, cabinet doors, as seen below, have been in my non-insulated shop (an old garage/utility room, with garage door most often opened in use) for over five years now.
These slab MDF doors, of the cheapest grade MDF available at the BORG, have been subjected to the notorious swings of Gulf Coast temperature and humidity, and, as this photo taken a few minutes ago shows, and despite non temperature/humidity controlled environment, show no signs of warping, bowing ... or any movement whatsoever:
https://picasaweb.google.com/111355467778981859077/EWoodShopRetrofit2011?noredirect=1#6258622200790550322
I have many more examples showing the stability of this material when used and finished properly in Gulf Coast garage environments.
Basically I would sat to not sell the product short for interior door applications in that type of environment.
As always, YMMV ... even though most often the proof is indeed in the pudding. ;)
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Isn't the weight an issue with mdf?

They look fine to me. I made some for my shop with melamine which I found out was really made of particle board, not mdf as they said it was. The found out I needed vinyl glue by tightbond. to secure some joints. I was not impressed as a couple of the panels came apart easily. Were those painted?

I just recently bought another book on cabinet work. In it they went through the pro's and con's regarding case work, and mentioned MDO was the ticket for painting due to its flat nature, were as even good Baltic Birch would show the imperfections or voids when painted where as if it was stained of coated with varnish, etc. it wouldn't be so noticeable.
They also mentioned that the MDO have better screw biting, holding than MDF, and so on. Along with that the cabinet and or door would weigh a lot less.
So that is what I was going by. I also checked with HD and while they didn't have it in stock they did have one sided 4 x 8's in various thickness' from 3/8's up. with a 3 day delivery. No cost firmed, but the said to come back on weekdays. I am also going to check the local hardwood shops to see what they say, and I needed to gather up info there for the FF.
I am about ready to make a cut sheet but have been toying with some ideas on slides, using the information from Leon and yourself for installation. I am hoping to have some designs done on that, this week.
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On 3/7/2016 2:09 AM, OFWW wrote:

It can be but when you cut it down to smaller sizes it is not all that much heavier.
BUT you certainly want to use "QUALITY" hinges. Most Euro style hinges work best as they do not rely on screws to hold the weight of the panel rather the panel fits on to the hinge and two screws simply keep the panel from coming off of the hinge.
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On 3/7/16 9:23 AM, Leon wrote:

That's one aspect of the brilliance of that cup design on euro hinges. The same design attribute that allows for hiding the working guts of the hinge also provide most of its mounting strength.
You can sort of think of it as a very large round tenon.
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On 3/7/2016 11:24 AM, -MIKE- wrote:

Not only that, but most manufacturer's of cup type hinges provide an option of two methods of mounting:
Wood screws only; or plastic dowel and dowel screws.
Thus addressing the issue of some door materials holding screws better than others in some applications.
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On 3/7/2016 11:43 AM, Swingman wrote:

I was always under the impression that the plastic "knock-in" hinges were simply to speed installation in a production setting. ;~)
Learn something new every day!
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On 3/7/2016 11:48 AM, Leon wrote:

Something that manufacturer's, like Blum, even advertise as optional accessories ... #2 from their blurb on accessory uses:
"Plastic Dowels, used on manufactured wood products where wood screws do not hold well"
Often needing to replace existing hinges for ones that will give me the necessary clearance for pullouts and drawers, I keep a package handy (get them locally at Rockler) in my "cabinet" tool box.
... you can also tap one in, then use a regular hinge wood screw in a pinch.
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On Saturday, March 5, 2016 at 12:34:37 PM UTC-6, Swingman wrote:

You might be able to toss me in that bag, too. I have used a fair amount o f MDF and HDF, and all kinds of other products, but only on a limited basis . While San Antonio is a large city geographically, we can be surprisingly behind the times.
I see all kinds of products at the home shows (we haven't had a woodworking show in probably 20 years) that look great, but aren't available here. On e year I saw a new kind of OSB that was very smooth, an inch thick, and hel d up the front end of a Ford F150 driven partly onto a sheet laid on a spec ially made sawhorse for the nationwide demo.
We never had it here. Never available.
One of my cabinet contacts buys a super high grade HDF, but has to buy it b y the lift. He uses it with a mill to make custom cabinet doors (remember Sekeris making his sheafs of wheat on all black doors?) with a Legacy type mill. He can't get it locally.
I got a half sheet of salvage from a lumberyard that was cleaning out its r acks, and no one knew what it was. It wasn't water resistant, but it was d andy for a work table I made for a client. It completely stable, and wore like iron on a small work table I made for him. I have the other piece und er a piece of Formica on my home made router table.
I personally have never seen, and frankly never heard of any kind of MDF yo u could leave outside with no concern. I don't even bother to look for tha t kind of thing here as I have wasted waaaay to much time looking for somet hing like that. It's a shame we don't have some of the more advanced produ cts here, but that's the way it goes. I am just happy I can get the super hard MDF architectural baseboards here that are so popular these days.

Yup.
Robert
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com says...

It's called "Extira". I suspect that there's a pile of it at the Dixieply yard, but getting it out of them might be a chore. One of the local hardwood retailers stocks it and this is hardly lumber heaven.

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On Sun, 13 Mar 2016 07:34:45 -0400, "J. Clarke"

than regular MDF the signs were shot within a year
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