so a dummy buys a ras...

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wrote:

Never seen a hole in a concrete wall behind a tablesaw? I've been lucky enough to not have one (a hole in the wall, that is) in my shop, but I've seen a few. They're all dangerous, so it's the operator's responsibility to use caution. Otherwise, we may as well all wrap ourselves in bubblewrap and take up knitting (with dull needles, of course)
And of course, if a stupid, careless moron is using a tool in a stupid, careless way, they'll learn the hard way. Can't save everyone, ya know.
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On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 03:03:28 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

Well, I've owned three of them, used them a lot in the past, and I think they suck.

An interesting claim but one not carefully supported by data.

Are you suggesting that most table saw accidents result in double amputation?

Well, Golly Gee, isn't that the whole game with any tool?

It is not the workpiece that must be feared but the whirling blade that self feeds towards the operator, perhaps not by intent, but surely by design.

Are you not available to the joy and safety of cutting with a sled and outfeed table?

In the act of ripping with a table saw the work is directed down and towards the table, whereas the work is naturally thrown up when using a radial arm saw.
In what way do you think that having the work directed away from the table is more safe than having it inherently directed towards it?

Not so far.

I agree totally with Robatoy on this and I will be glad to tell you, in the spirit of objectivity, that you will never see one of these widowmaker pieces of shit in a professional shop, excepting the instances where it is dedicated to crosscutting, usually close to the lumber rack, so that it can buck things up into rough lengths. And that is only the case because they already owned the pig and did not want to sell it for scrap to have a down payment on a SCMS.
Radial Arm Saws are the Swiss Army Knives of the amateur wooddorking world and suffer from the same affliction as their referent; they don't do anything well but are often asked to do many things poorly.
If radial arm saws had a corkscrew, I might consider putting one back in my shop.
I long ago traded a RAS, allegedly capable of cutting 25" in crosscut, for a 12" SCMS. The reason was that what was alleged did not prove true, to a usable accurate degree, under daily use, and that work went back to the TS.
A careful thinking about the geometry and stresses under load of a contraption such as the RAS would inevitably lead a thoughtful and prudent person to give theirs away to their dearest enemy.
Tom Watson - WoodDorker tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)
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LOL!! I can't WAIT to see Rumpty's response. The gloves are off! You go, Tom.
Dave
Tom Watson wrote:

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| wrote: | | >I'm always mystified at the prejudice displayed toward RASs by those who have | >never owned and rarely used one. | | Well, I've owned three of them, used them a lot in the past, and I | think they suck. | > | >Radial arm saws are WAAAAAY safer than table saws. | | An interesting claim but one not carefully supported by data. | | > When operating the RAS, one | >hand is *always* on the handle of the saw and it is therefore impossible to | >amputate that hand or any of its digits | | Are you suggesting that most table saw accidents result in double | amputation? | | >- and to keep the other hand safe, all | >you have to do it put it someplace that isn't in the path of the blade, and | >keep it there. | | Well, Golly Gee, isn't that the whole game with any tool? | > | >Kickback is a rare event, and if it occurs, the workpiece is thrown *away* | >from the operator, not *toward* him as with a TS. | | It is not the workpiece that must be feared but the whirling blade | that self feeds towards the operator, perhaps not by intent, but | surely by design. | > | >Crosscutting long boards on a table saw is insane by comparison with doing the | >same on a radial arm saw. | | Are you not available to the joy and safety of cutting with a sled and | outfeed table? | > | >Ripping looks scary... but think about it - there's less blade exposed during | >rip operations on a RAS than on a TS (assuming you haven't done something | >stupid like removing the guard). | | In the act of ripping with a table saw the work is directed down and | towards the table, whereas the work is naturally thrown up when using | a radial arm saw. | | In what way do you think that having the work directed away from the | table is more safe than having it inherently directed towards it? | | > | >I know I'm coming perilously close to violating the Usenet Prime Directive by | >attempting to inject a dose of reality into a discussion | | Not so far. | | >, but, please, let's | >at least attempt to be a little bit objective here. | | | I agree totally with Robatoy on this and I will be glad to tell you, | in the spirit of objectivity, that you will never see one of these | widowmaker pieces of shit in a professional shop, excepting the | instances where it is dedicated to crosscutting, usually close to the | lumber rack, so that it can buck things up into rough lengths. And | that is only the case because they already owned the pig and did not | want to sell it for scrap to have a down payment on a SCMS. | | Radial Arm Saws are the Swiss Army Knives of the amateur wooddorking | world and suffer from the same affliction as their referent; they | don't do anything well but are often asked to do many things poorly. | | If radial arm saws had a corkscrew, I might consider putting one back | in my shop. | | I long ago traded a RAS, allegedly capable of cutting 25" in crosscut, | for a 12" SCMS. The reason was that what was alleged did not prove | true, to a usable accurate degree, under daily use, and that work went | back to the TS. | | | A careful thinking about the geometry and stresses under load of a | contraption such as the RAS would inevitably lead a thoughtful and | prudent person to give theirs away to their dearest enemy. | | | | | | | Tom Watson - WoodDorker | tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email) | http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)
Being as objective as one can, I must honestly declare that I have both in my shop. I started with a RAS and added a "cabinet" saw shortly after I discovered the thrill(?) of a RAS RIP. I later added a slider.
Anyone in the London ON area like a really good, hardly used RAS?
-- PDQ
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Obviously not, and I can't even begin to imagine what you might have thought you read that suggested that.

Not quite. On other tools - tablesaws and shapers, for example - the cutter is stationary, and one's hands move past it. The risk of moving the hand into the cutter is obviously higher than on a tool such as the RAS, in which the cutter moves in a straight line on a fixed and unchangeable path. All you gotta do to avoid a hand injury is to put your hand somewhere that's not in that path, and keep it put.

Nonsense. The blade on an RAS is no more to be feared than that on a TS. The blade is contained in a steel guard attached to the motor housing, which rides on rails. Yes, it can move, but where it's gonna move isn't exactly a mystery.

I am. I'm also well acquainted with the joy and safety of crosscutting long and heavy boards without having to deal with their large moment of inertia.

Sorry, but you're wrong. In *both* cases, the teeth on the leading edge of the blade are moving *down* and thus exerting a downward force on the wood.

I don't think that for a moment. But as I've pointed out, that's not what happens on a RAS.

Careful thinking about the geometry would also lead to correct conclusions about the direction of the force exerted on the work by the blade.
It's quite clear that your position is, like Robatoy's, the result of prejudice, and not of logic.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 01:48:49 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

Strike One.

Strike Two.

Foul Ball.

Another foul. This one tingled the hands a bit.

That one rode the corner. I'll call it a ball, just to keep the AB going.

OK. Ball Two.

Strike Three. And that wasn't even a good junk pitch.

Don't argue with the ump.

Sigh. Off to the showers with ya.
Don't despair, it's hard to come back from an 0-2 count.
"Have faith my son, remember the great Dimaggio."
(E.H., TOMATS)
Tom Watson - WoodDorker tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)
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So you don't like them. Fine. That does not prove they're unsafe.

Neither can you produce data showing otherwise.

Perhaps you'd care to explain how you managed to misunderstand what you thought I wrote.

Apparently you disagree. Perhaps you'd be specific about the reasons.

IOW you know I'm right but you don't want to admit it.

I think that means "yes, you're right about that one."

There isn't any disputing the *fact* that the teeth on the leading edge of an RAS and a TS move the same direction: down.

The ump blew the call.

Your persistent evasion demonstrates ever more clearly that your position is the result of prejudice and not of logic.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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Doug Miller wrote: ...

Only if you're climb-cutting while ripping on a RAS and that <is> dangerous!
When ripping on a RAS, to feed against the rotation direction, the leading teeth are rotating upwards...
While I use a RAS a fair amount including ripping, it definitely requires setting the blade guard correctly to serve as the holddown while ripping...
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or cross-cutting, which is the principal use of the tool

I won't dispute that.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 10:40:38 -0500, Duane Bozarth

Unless, of course, you actually use hold-downs attached to your RAS fence (which I have used in addition to setting the guard properly to act as a hold-down).
Dave Hall
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On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 12:43:29 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

Would you care to rethink that statement?
Tom Watson - WoodDorker tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (email) http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1/ (website)
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Nope.
Expand on it, maybe... by pointing out that the principle use of a RAS is for crosscuts, and inviting you to notice which direction the teeth are moving in a crosscut.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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HUH????????
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What, do you think the teeth on an RAS spin *up* at the front?
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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Doug Miller wrote:

I, too, read that and wondered what the ....? Then I thought about it and must presume that George may be one of those who chooses to bring the RAS all the way out on the carriage and then push it back towards the fence with the board to be cut between the two.
But then I REALLY re-read it and figured that if perhaps George is somehow doing a "reverse" RIP on a RAS, maybe he does have a valid point about the RAS behing inherently dangerous. Just like others have made the point that the only real danger is the stupidity of the operator.
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Perhaps attempting to use a radial arm saw in that manner explains the blind, unreasoning, panicky shouts of "Unsafe! Unsafe!"
It *is* unsafe when used like that. *Any* tool is, or can be, unsafe when used incorrectly. And again, we're back to the operator making the difference, not the tool.

No, that would *not* in *any* way be "a valid point about the RAS being inherently dangerous" - that would be a demonstration that using a tool incorrectly is inherently dangerous.
Now, on a "normal" rip on a RAS, the teeth at the leading edge *are* moving up... but ripping is not the normal mode of use for a RAS. Crosscutting is. And when crosscutting, the teeth at the leading edge are moving *down*, and exerting a *downward* force on the workpiece. Despite what George and Tom think.
Neither is a RAS the best tool for ripping. That would be a TS.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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Tsk tsk tsk, not nice to lie!
--
Rumpty

Radial Arm Saw Forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/woodbutcher/start
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Though I now have a table saw and haven't used a RAS in some years, I have ripped plenty on them. It is no problem and I never saw it as any more dangerous than on a table saw. Longer push sticks are mandatory. Never get inside the frame. The only way I see a tablesaw better for ripping the usual stuff (under twelve inches wide) is the table not being as smooth and nice on the RAS.

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on the RAS.
Granted, considering some of the crap tables supplied by the various manufacturers including B&D's DeWalt models. BUT....change that table to a 2 ply 3/4" plywood/MDF table (total 1 1/2" thick) with steel reinforcing strips you have a table (aka as a "Mr Sawdust" table) that's dead flat and as nice as any TS. What I do like about using a wood table is that it does have a bit of friction to it which makes ripping/shaping a bit safer than say slick piece if cast iron.
--
Rumpty

Radial Arm Saw Forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/woodbutcher/start
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On Fri, 17 Jun 2005 13:08:05 GMT, Unquestionably Confused

They are talking about ripping on the RAS, not crosscutting. Usually in ripping on a RAS you push the board into the blade from behind where the blade is moving upward when it hits your board. Pushing a board into the front of a RAS blade set in rip mode will possibily cause the saw to grab the board and try to suck it into the blade. This often results in either a stall on an underpowered Craftsman RAS or "issues" with a more powerful RAS.
Dave Hall
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