Sketchup, dowels

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While I'm still a novice at Sketchup, I fear I have gotten good enough with it to design things that outstrip my woodworking skills (or my available woodworking *time*. I've been committing ideas to "paper", figuratively speaking; enough to take a year for me to translate into actual wood-and-glue reality.
I'm curious if any of you do something like this:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/11968699426/in/set-72157639547178715
... when you're designing a piece, and if there's any simpler way other than copying and pasting.
This would be an end table, which is still deep in the "musing" stage, but I like the general idea. With my tool complement and skill set, I see a couple of issues. The first is how to fasten the 1x2 "pickets" at each end to the rails above and below. (together, they make a roman numeral "III"). I don't have a Domino, and I question whether I would live long enough to cut mortises and tenons for each one, something I've never tried.
I'm thinking of using this BeadLock jig,
http://www.rockler.com/3-8-beadlock-basic-starter-kit
... but not in the usual way. (the usual way being to drill 5 holes that mate with their proprietary tenon stock). I would just drill two adjacent holes and use dowels. Like this:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/11967862325/in/set-72157639547178715/
Assuming no one has any objections (ha), how would you glue something like that? I only ask because it should not be under any stress at all. Would you: Not use glue at all? Only put glue on the dowels? Or make sure all the mating surfaces have glue?
Is there some other way to join these pieces that's not too "advanced"? I plan to use pocket screws for some of the other joints, but these would show.
That brings me to the next issue. Each "leg" would consist of a 1x3 and a 1x2 joined at a right angle, probably with a slight shadow line. I assume biscuits would do the trick here, and a biscuit joiner is not out of the question, but I'm wondering what other options there might be.
I will remind you that I don't have a table saw, and that my skills are, um, "developing".
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An alternative is to plow a groove[*] down the length of the top and bottom rails, where the groove is the same width as the verticals, if the verticals are thinner than the rails (which would help reduce the final weight of the end table). I'd use 3/8" verticals with 3/4" rails. Pin or glue the rails in place once spaced appropriately.
The downside is that dust and other crap will collect in the open groove on the bottom rail, but you can fill that with 3/8" filler stock and level to the rail.
[*] With a router, since you don't have a ts.
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On 1/15/2014 2:23 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:

Ok, first off, did you see the detailed answers that were given to your earlier Sketchup questions that you posted about a week ago? Did they help? Did you appreciate the responses? ;~) Want more questions answered?

Reading Scott's response, and to clarify, you have no table saw, is that correct? Assuming so,
Using more than one dowel on the end of each post requires the placement to be dead nuts on or you risk splitting the ends of the stiles. Probably the easiest method would be to use one dowel instead of two on each end and glue. BUT to keep the post from rotating drill a hole in the bottom of the bottom rail under each post and run a screw up inside and into the bottom of each post.

Biscuits, still Dominoe's would be the easiest. With Dominoe's you can elongate one of the mortises to help with alignment should your cuts not be dead on.

I would cut a rabbet along the mating surface of the 1x3 to hlep with alignment and just glue it.
that is what I did here to join the front and back face frames to the side panels.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/11888682455/
If you look closely you cansee how that came together here
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/11863790753/lightbox/

None of my suggestions require a TS.

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On 1/15/2014 7:06 PM, Leon wrote: > On 1/15/2014 2:23 PM, Greg Guarino wrote: >> While I'm still a novice at Sketchup, I fear I have gotten good enough >> with it to design things that outstrip my woodworking skills (or my >> available woodworking *time*. I've been committing ideas to "paper", >> figuratively speaking; enough to take a year for me to translate into >> actual wood-and-glue reality. >> >> I'm curious if any of you do something like this: >> >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/11968699426/in/set-72157639547178715 >> >> >> ... when you're designing a piece, and if there's any simpler way other >> than copying and pasting. >> >> This would be an end table, which is still deep in the "musing" stage, >> but I like the general idea. With my tool complement and skill set, I >> see a couple of issues. The first is how to fasten the 1x2 "pickets" at >> each end to the rails above and below. (together, they make a roman >> numeral "III"). I don't have a Domino, and I question whether I would >> live long enough to cut mortises and tenons for each one, something I've >> never tried. >> >> I'm thinking of using this BeadLock jig, >> >> http://www.rockler.com/3-8-beadlock-basic-starter-kit >> >> ... but not in the usual way. (the usual way being to drill 5 holes that >> mate with their proprietary tenon stock). I would just drill two >> adjacent holes and use dowels. Like this: >> >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/11967862325/in/set-72157639547178715/ >> >> > > Ok, first off, did you see the detailed answers that were given to your > earlier Sketchup questions that you posted about a week ago? Did they > help? Did you appreciate the responses? ;~) Want more questions answered? >
In fact, some of those responses have already come in handy. I think I grasp the "component" process better than I did before, for one thing. Sorry for the lack of a reply.
>> >> Assuming no one has any objections (ha), how would you glue something >> like that? I only ask because it should not be under any stress at all. >> Would you: Not use glue at all? Only put glue on the dowels? Or make >> sure all the mating surfaces have glue? > > Reading Scott's response, and to clarify, you have no table saw, is that > correct? Assuming so, > > Using more than one dowel on the end of each post requires the placement > to be dead nuts on or you risk splitting the ends of the stiles.
To clarify, I risk splitting while I'm drilling the holes? Or when I try to "force" the piece into alignment with misaligned holes? I'll assume the latter. I was thinking about the alignment myself. I thought maybe I'd give it a dry run with the "Beadlock" jig to see if I could get it accurate enough.
> Probably the easiest method would be to use one dowel instead of two on > each end and glue. BUT to keep the post from rotating drill a hole in > the bottom of the bottom rail under each post and run a screw up inside > and into the bottom of each post.
Clever. I could recess the screw in the bottom rail and it would never be seen. And I'd have half as many (precision) holes to drill.
>> >> Is there some other way to join these pieces that's not too "advanced"? >> I plan to use pocket screws for some of the other joints, but these >> would show. > > Biscuits,
I was considering buying a biscuit joiner to attach the "leg" pieces together. I have no experience with biscuits, but from what I've seen on TV (you can all snicker now), it doesn't look like you could fit a biscuit into the end of a 1x2. Can you?
still Dominoe's would be the easiest. With Dominoe's you can > elongate one of the mortises to help with alignment should your cuts not > be dead on.
Looks like a great system, but a little pricey for an occasional dabbler like myself.
>> That brings me to the next issue. Each "leg" would consist of a 1x3 and >> a 1x2 joined at a right angle, probably with a slight shadow line. I >> assume biscuits would do the trick here, and a biscuit joiner is not out >> of the question, but I'm wondering what other options there might be. > > I would cut a rabbet along the mating surface of the 1x3 to hlep with > alignment and just glue it. > > that is what I did here to join the front and back face frames to the > side panels. > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/11888682455/ > > If you look closely you cansee how that came together here > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/11863790753/lightbox/ >
Interesting. That would slim down the (visible) edge of the 2x3, but it is a technique that is within my skill set. I may draw it out that way and see what I think of it. Thanks. >> >> I will remind you that I don't have a table saw, and that my skills are, >> um, "developing". >> > > None of my suggestions require a TS.
Thanks.
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On 1/15/2014 7:51 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:

Yes, when pressing the parts together. Also be certain that the holes in the top and bottom rails are directly above/below one another or your pickets will not stand plumb.

Exactly

Yes, if you buy the PC557 with the FF blade and use FF biscuits. Those are pretty small.

That is true.

You can make the rabbet relative shallow, 1/8" and you porbably would only be able to tell by measuring. All you need is that shallow ledge to keep the mating 1x2 piece from sliding across the face of the 1x3.

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On 1/15/2014 9:15 PM, Leon wrote:

The more I think about this, the more I like the idea. One of the great things about dadoes and rabbets (besides the fact that I have been successful at making them) is that once they are cut, there's no more worry about alignment; the precise amount of imprecision is locked in. :)
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On 1/16/2014 10:19 AM, Greg Guarino wrote:

Exactly, the rabbet is only marginally stronger than a butt joint but is quite helpful in holding the mating pieces in registration to each other.

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wrote:

The Ryobi trim biscuit joiner that I have would.
http://woodworking.about.com/b/2011/06/01/biscuit-joints.htm
There is a picture of it in the article.
Mark
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No table saw makes dowels pretty much your best bet. not sure what other equipment you have.
Pickets

Note necessarily better but different and maybe easier. - Use one dowel at the top end of each picket - Use two screws through pre-drilled holes from the under side of the bottom rail

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Fricking Google posted before finished

Pickets

Not necessarily better but different and maybe easier.
- Use one dowel at the top end of each picket
- Use two screws through pre-drilled holes from the under side of the bo ttom rail - Assembly hint, lay the side structure on a table and use spacers betwe en the pickets to keep them equal and square, clamp up then drive the screw s.
Legs

Dowel at each end wouldn't hurt but could just glue them, no dowel or biscu it needed. Should be very easy to align as needed and if clamped well moder n glue is all you need for that long butt joint. If you had a table saw you could do a kerf with a spline but alas.
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On 1/15/2014 7:36 PM, SonomaProducts.com wrote: > Note necessarily better but different and maybe easier. > - Use one dowel at the top end of each picket > - Use two screws through pre-drilled holes from the under side of the bottom rail
I hadn't thought about the fact that the bottom won't be seen. I may go with some variation on this idea. Thanks.
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On 1/15/2014 2:23 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:

It's OK to let slats/spindles float, without glue. However, with chairs I use loose tenon joinery and glue just the mortises and tenons, after pre-finishing:
https://plus.google.com/photos/111355467778981859077/albums/5804068524272521473?banner=pwa
A lot can be gleaned from studying these photos. If you have any questions, just ask.

All you need is a plunge router for loose tenons. Since you don't have a table saw to make the loose tenons, make them 1/4" thick and buy project board for a BORG.

Use loose tenon joinery, with a router jig like this:
http://e-woodshop.net/Jigs.htm#MortJig1
I built the _prototype_ for this chair using just a plunge router for the loose tenon joinery:
http://e-woodshop.net/Projects10.htm
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On 1/15/2014 7:54 PM, Swingman wrote:

So far, I haven't got a plunge router. But I think I can see one from here. :)
I'm curious about that jig (partly because it looks simple enough for me to make). It looks as if it uses the bottom plate/body of the router running along the stops in the jig for alignment. Is that preferable in some way to a jig with a bearing-guided bit or a guide ring? Or can you even use such things with a plunge router? (feel free to take a deep breath if the ignorance gets too thick in here)
In addition, it looks as if the width of the mortise is not simply the diameter of the bit; the router follows one fence, then moves over a tad to follow the other fence in the opposite direction. Is that correct? You shim the fences and stops to control the length and thickness?
Lastly, "project board" means the thin hardwood slats they sell at HD? Presumably I'd need to rout the tenon stock to round the edges, preferably to the same radius as the router bit that made the mortises?
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Greg Guarino wrote:

I've seen the 2 1/4 h.p. Dewalt DW618 "kit", IIRC (with fixed and plunge base) for well under $200 recently, maybe $159. But that may have something to do with the holidays. I noticed since I paid more than $200 a couple of years ago...lol.
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On 1/15/2014 8:09 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:

Check your incoming ...

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbranded-1-4-x-2-x-4-Oak-Board-224785/100031137#
I can round over the edges of 1/4" tenon stock almost as fast with a file/rasp as I can setting up a round over bit on the router table, so don't tailed tools stop you. ;)
Note: 1/4" thick loose tenons fulfill the classic requirement for tenons being 1/3rd the thickness of 3/4" thick stock.
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On 1/16/2014 8:25 AM, Swingman wrote:

Thanks, and thanks for telling me to check my email; I don't regularly use that account. I'll read it at my leisure ... whenever that might be. I may need to print it to read on the train.
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On 1/16/2014 8:25 AM, Swingman wrote:

I take from that comment that the fit need not be exact, except, I suppose, thickness-wise.
so

I haven't so far. I can't afford "tailed" tools. :)
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On 1/16/2014 8:25 AM, Swingman wrote:

I read the article on the subway this evening. I was thinking about ways to make it easier to make multiple pieces. It looks like it's kind of a pain to line up a new piece and clamp it each time. And is one bar clamp really enough to keep the piece steady while routing?
Here's my first thought experiment. Imagine that instead of clamping the "fence" part of the jig in a vise, perpendicular to the jaws, you screwed the fence into the fixed jaw of the vise (face to face), such that the "table" of the jig just just touches the top of the vise jaws.
And ... oh hell, I guess I need the sketchup practice anyway:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/gdguarino/11989630105/in/set-72157639547178715/lightbox/
Use the right arrow to scroll. There are 5 views.
The jig, pretty much as it was shown in the article Karl sent me, is shown in beige. The vise is gray (it's a magic vise: no threads). The workpiece is red. The jaws and spacer are orange. The jig would be screwed into the fixed jaw, or could alternatively replace the fixed jaw.
In my extremely inexpert opinion, this arrangement would allow you to put a new piece in simply by loosening the vise, slipping in a new piece and retightening. The main limiting factor is the space between the rods of the vise, at least for making mortises in end grain. I added in a spacer, attached to the moving jaw of the vise (shown in a darker orange) mostly to allow the handle to spin, but it could also serve to support the jig.
So, is there anything stupid about this that I'm not seeing?
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On 1/16/2014 9:20 PM, Greg Guarino wrote:

There is very little that can't be improved for the way you work.
Like I said, I built a prototype chair, with compound angled joinery,. using that jig for the mortises that is still in use. It was not an efficient experience compared to my Multi-Router, but it got the job done.
The proof will be in the pudding.
BTW, excellent use of SketchUp!
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On 1/17/2014 8:08 AM, Swingman wrote:

Pudding cooks for an awful long time in my house.

Thanks. I'm progressing.
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