On 06 Jun 2010 02:53:46 GMT, email@example.com (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
The groundING conductor may not be interrupted, but it is my understanding
that the GroundED conductor may. It's common practice to pigtail the GroundED
conductor, as well.
groundING conductor == Safety Ground
groundED conductor == Neutral
I'm fully aware of the difference between a grounded conductor and a
grounding conductor. I pulled out my NEC 1999 and see that my statement
above applies only to multiwire branch circuits:
1999 NEC Section 300-13.
In multiwire branch circuits, the continuity of a grounded conductor
shall not depend on device connections such as lampholders, recptacles, etc.
where removal of such devices would interrupt the continuity.
This means that neutrals of branch circuits supplying receptacles are not
permitted to depend on terminal connections for continuity between devices
for a circuit with two or more ungrounded conductors that have a potential
difference between them and a grounded conductor that has equal potential
difference between it and each ungrounded conductor.
Section 300-13 doesn't apply to individual two-wire circuits or circuits
without a grounded conductor.
It does apply to 240v circuits with a grounded conductor (such as 4-wire
dryer or electric stove circuits with two ungrounded conductors, a grounded
conductor and a grounding conductor).
Note that there must be at least 6" of conductor from the point at which
it emerges from the sheath or raceway (e.g. conduit), and it must extend
at least 3" outside the handy box.
A few months ago, the idea of a "quad in a box" go-anywhere power source
was brought up.
:: sheepishly he asked::
Is it okay to power this configuration by plugging it into a wall outlet???
Trying to answer the question myself, I'm pretty sure it's not even ok to be
able to step
on nm cable, so, at the very minimum, more durable insulation is required.
Swingman offered me a good piece of advice, which is never to do anything
you don't feel confident about (and I'm following that).
I've learned even more since he mentioned that--learning to appreciate for
instance the importance
of being very careful not to even nick any of the conducting wires (which
might result in a short for instance),
and in installing a panel with a level. Attention to detail.
I was chopping up a few small logs today after the midwest storm lastnight.
7/8 of the way
through one, I broke it across my thigh and as I did 14" extra broke off
and swung swiftly within 2" of my throat,
breaking off like if it was part of an overlapping joint. It occurred to me
that I might have just as
easily have butchered myself except for those few inches.
Anyway, the moral is: Woodworking, electrical, or anything else--think about
what could go wrong
before you do it.
Maybe nobody knows what a "quad-in-a-box" is? I don't. Perhaps dual duplex
Usually electrical safety codes do not apply very tightly to plug-in
devices. These devices would be controlled by consumer safety agencies like
UL & CSA. Everytime the ELec. Code Inspector comes you would just unplug it,
Is this any help?
Yes, of course. The NEC is concerned with services, feeders, and branch
circuits -- basically, everything between the service drop and the outlet.
What's on *your* side of the outlet is of no concern to the NEC.
Josephi - You read my mind. A pair of duplex outlets was what I had in mind
by "quad in a box". I honestly did not intend to be vague.
Doug -- Wouldn't this be considered an extension of the branch
circuit/outlet since it is an outlet itself? Maybe it's gets omitted for
being temporary. This same mechanism seems like the best way to add
outlets underneath the table of a workbench. Do you think that this is this
just as permissable?
I had a question concerning the ground wires in wiring a quad box in a
branch circuit (both outlets to be run in series from the same hot).
Resources I have found have been vague. My understanding includes that a
wire attached to the ground terminal of the first duplex outlet would be
pigtailed with the upstream ground wire and a wire which is screwed to the
box, and that the wire attached to the ground terminal of the second duplex
outlet would be pigtailed with the downstream ground wire and a wire which
is screwed to the (metal) box. So the box would contain exactly 2
connectors and two wires would be screwed to the box, possibly at the same
place. Does this seem like the best way to you? I can think of equivalent
configurations, but this one seems good. Another possibility seems to be to
use a 3rd pigtail connecting the first two pigtail connections and connect
them to the box that way instead. Which way seems preferable to you?
BTW, using 12-3 cable for my run, every wire I mentioned connecting in the
paragraph above would be bare (right?).
Cut to the chase.
Go back and reread and understand my post a long time ago on this
Buy a 12-3 (black, white, green), 25 ft molded cord set, chop off
receptacle, wire in a 2-gang, extra deep box with a double duplex
cover plate and a couple of receptacles.
Time for a beer.
It's only a silly extension cord.
Um, why would one extension cord require/merit more care than another
extension cord, Bill? Am I missing something from the original
Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what
to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity.
-- George S. Patton
No -- because it's *not* an outlet. It's an extension cord.
It's not covered by the Code because it's not part of the premises wiring
Certainly. As I said before, it's just an extension cord.
Parallel, actually, not series.
That's one way to do it, but certainly not the only way. The Code requires
that both grounding wires, and the grounding terminals of each outlet, and the
metal box, are all electrically connected. How you achieve that is up to you.
A more common installation would be to wire-nut together pigtails from each
outlet, both grounding conductors, and a pigtail fastened to the box.
NO. At different places. One wire per screw terminal.
Not the second one you mention here. Why use an extra pigtail if you don't
Every wire you mentioned *must* be bare, regardless of what type of cable
you're using -- but why are you using 12-3 cable? (12-3 has *four* conductors:
black, red, white, and bare.)
The NEC mandates that the grounding conductor be either:
a) uninsulated, or
b) covered with insulation which is green, or green with a yellow stripe.
NM cable is manufactured *only* with bare grounding conductors.
On Tue, 08 Jun 2010 11:26:16 GMT, firstname.lastname@example.org (Doug Miller)
everything be UL(or equal) listed. Even when we've hard wired them
into ceiling boxes in commercial installations the only requirement
was the use of heavy duty cord and strain relief connectors at both
-- but why are you using 12-3 cable? (12-3 has *four* conductors:
hot and 4 more with the other hot.
I'm also going to run wire to dedicated 240v outlets. I'm also going to use
it for my lighting (different circuits
I have already used SU to estimate my wire requirements, and one 250' roll
of 12-3 will meet adequately meet ALL of my current (cough, cough) wiring
needs. Wiring to my outlets will range from 23'-44' and
I think this decision will make managing my wire inventory very simple, now
and with whatever is leftover.
I'm always willing to be corrected, but I thought this was a good decision
on my part.
I was tempted to go with pigtailing 5 wires to connect to ground, but that
seems to slightly complicate
the future replacement of a duplex outlet (since to my understanding,
properly done, the end of the wires
should be recut). I think I'm on safer ground (cough), or at least more
confident, twisting/connecting 3 wires
rather than 5. I surely don't want one coming loose.
Thank you very much for your valuable assistance! And also to other folks
who have helped me
along my road to self-actualization.
My next step is to remove all of the wallboard on two walls. Then I can
remove/modify the existing wiring before I put up the new. I have to admit
that I overlooked the
removal/modification step in my planning! And this does not include the
30Amp RV-outlet on the
outside of my shop that I am not using. I think I will dismantle it at the
panel for now. The NEC doesn't
preclude leaving it in this state/condition, does it?
There's no need to run 12-3 or 10-3 for pure 240V outlets. A 240V circuit does
not use, and hence does not need, a neutral conductor, so 12-2 or 10-2 will
work just fine.
It makes more sense to use 14-2 for your lighting circuits. Why 12-3?
I don't agree. I think it's a poor decision. Based on the plans you posted a
week or so back, you don't need 12-3 for *anything*. All of your 120V outlets
can be wired with 12-2, and the lighting with 14-2.
And you should be using 10-2, not 12-3, for the 240V circuits. The dust
collector can manage on 12-2, I'd imagine.
It didn't used to, but the Code does now require that abandoned wire be
removed as much as practical. There was a discussion of that over at
alt.home.repair about 5-6 months ago, I think -- I'm pretty sure somebody
posted the exact requirements, and you should be able to find the thread with
a Google Groups search.
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