Shop Wall and Electric

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wrote:

That's correct, it does not.
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That's for _access_ to the panel. Does -not- mean that 'nothing' can be there.
"premesis" panel in the kitchen of a condo. 'drop leaf' counter mounted on the wall under it. outlets on wall a line about halfway between counter line and bottom of box. one 3" to the right of the right edge of the panel, another about 10 " to the left of the panel. City inspector had -no- problems with it. (locale: a Chicago suburb, inspectors knowledgable and strict. Had some minor quibbles over a few nuances of interpretation, but when they explained, I had to agree their logic made sense. And I then did things their way. (helped a lot that I double-checked _before_ doing, when of in 'nooks and crannies' of the code. <grin>)

Minimum distance is about two box fittings. <grin>

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As of 4 years ago, I can say "authoritatively not". Can't imagine that they stuck something that silly in a new version, but i have been wrong before. Twice, I think.
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I updated my wiring diagram and posted the new one in the same place in case it might be of interest to anyone.
BTW, the "doubly-ganged C-B" is evidently referred to as "Tandem" if you haven't already seen them on your grocer's shelf! : )
Bill
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I did the following to mine:
(1) Double the number of 120 outlets (2) use quad outlet boxes at 120 locations (dahikt) (3) Put ALL electrical in conduit on outside of walls.
The reason for the external wiring is that every shop tends to get moved around from time to time and you can move stuff MUCH easier with it in conduit.
Bill wrote:

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re: "use quad outlet boxes at 120 locations"
480 outlets? Yeah, that oughta be enough for most shops. ;-)
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wrote:

re: "use quad outlet boxes at 120 locations"
480 outlets? Yeah, that oughta be enough for most shops. ;-)
Thank you Pat Barber who first mentioned this in this thread and DerbyDad03 who brought it up again. For some reason the idea of having pairs of duplex outlets didn't take until I considered it while standing in the shop area. It sounds like a good idea! You never know where things will end up, battery rechargers and such. I even ended up with a small "shop refrigerator" already (and I never was serious about having one..).
A little more action on the project: today I took down and demolished about 6 1970's vintage kitchen cabinets which are in the way. I referred to them earlier as "hideous" and I won't be missing them. I confess that the act of smashing them up with a big crowbar was almost more fun than it should have been. : )
Bill
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On 6/3/2010 2:07 PM, Pat Barber wrote:

You can even move the conduit, with receptacles still wired, from shop to shop ... DAMHIKT. :)
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1. Ceiling duplex outlets for every light fixture but two circuits splitting duplex outlets into Switched (plug in your light) and steady/ always on and one breaker for each "side"
2. Locate wall outlets at convenient height(s) so as not to fall behind benches, tool chests etc. and consider two duplex outlets at each location with the upper left outlet SWITCHED and on its own circuit. (These outlets are dedicated to plugging in those little wall modules that you should unplug when leaving the shop as they eat power 24/7 and get hot and can burn/start fires).
3. Switches for lighting and ceiling and upper left at each ingress/ egress point (one, two, three or four-way switches as appropriate.
4. Remotely-switched circuit for air compressor (ao you need not be wakened at 3AM by wife complaining of the noise "it's waking our neighbors").
5. Extend outlets to front edge of fixed work bench(es).
6. Consider COAX, POTS, and CAT5 cables brought in from main house in case TV, phone or Computer Network application later become more important than they, now, may seem.

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+I+ would run _10_ ga. (minimum) to the 240 outlets. It's only trivially more cost initially, and 'in the future' it makes it much easier to support something that needs more power (just change the breaker and the plug).
One can never have enough 120v outlets. I'd put a quad box at each of the three locations, with two circuits (one for each duplex outlet pair).
If it is a strictly ONE MAN shop, two circuits for all the 120V is likely enough -- the 'one man' feature will limit how much gear is running at any given moment.
IF NOT, I'd want a minimum of 3 circuits for the 120v, with 'staggered' availability. i.e. circuit1/2 at the first box, circuit2/3 at the second box, and circuit 3/1 at the third box..
Also, you'll find out _real_quick_ that you need more outlets by the work- bench. recommend 3 quad boxes along -that- wall as well.
Lastly, I'd put in GFI _outlets_, and use regular breakers, where I could. _IF_ something trips, it will kill that outlet only, and -not- take out 'something else' that might be running on the same circuit. More of a consideration in a 'more than one person' shop, but it's along the same lines as why you don't put _anything_ else on the 'lighting' circuit -- localize the 'surprise factor' as much as possible.
Note: if you look for 'em, you can find _20_ Amp rated 120v GFI duplex outlets. They're practically the same cost as the stock 15A ones, but the attachment points are sized for the bigger wire gauge, and give the potential for _safely_ supporting a higher-draw 120v device.
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snipped-for-privacy@host122.r-bonomi.com (Robert Bonomi) wrote in
*snip*

*snip*
Many of the GFCI outlets I've seen have a little indicator light that turns on when tripped. Simplifes the whole "did my lamp burn out or is the outlet dead?" question. Just another small reason to use GFCI outlets.
Puckdropper
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Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

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"Puckdropper" <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote in message

Robert,
That sounds (to me) inconsistent with the "you one need one GFI outlet at the beginning of a (circuit) run for each hot" advise that I've heard. What am I missing?
Bill

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On 6/4/2010 11:04 PM, Bill wrote:

Nothing ... you should not have more than one GFCI protection device on a branch circuit; either a GFCI c'bkr protecting the circuit at the panel, or a "GFCI receptacle" as the first receptacle in the branch circuit that protects the rest of the run.
He was merely saying that, in some instances, that first GFCI receptacle is in the same room making it easy to see if it has tripped.
That is not always the case in a residence, however, where the GFCI receptacle for the branch circuit may be in a different room, in a closet, on the wall under a cabinet, on in some instances, outside ... it's why I carry a GFCI circuit tester in my pocket, particularly when accompanying an inspector on an electrical inspection of one of my houses under construction, something which I _always_ do.
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Nothing. that's _all_ you *NEED*. *IF* you series-wired the downstream outlets.
I parallel-wire, and use a GFI each place.
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On Sat, 05 Jun 2010 15:55:30 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@host122.r-bonomi.com (Robert Bonomi) wrote:

Why would you do that? BTW, bad choice of terminology. All loads are wired in parallel.
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"because". <grin> See my self-follow-up article where I clarified everything.

You demonstrate you don't know what you don't know.
'protected' outlets downstream from a GFI outlet are wired in _series_ with the GFI device. (This doesn't mean that the loads are in series, they're not, but current-sensing _requires_ a sensor in series with the load.) Even a 'clamp-on' ammeter uses a sensor in series with the load. *grin*
You have a pair (hot/neutral) of 'line' terminals for the feed from the panel, and an _isolated_ pair of terminals for feeding the protected outlets. If you use _either_ the hot or neutral from the panel to the downstream outlets rather than the isolated ones from the GFI, there is *no* protection.
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On Sat, 05 Jun 2010 17:18:08 -0500, snipped-for-privacy@host122.r-bonomi.com (Robert Bonomi) wrote:

...sure, AFTER I posted. ;-)

Au contraire, I know what I know. ;-)

That is *not* a series connection. "Series" has a very specific meaning. I did understand what you were saying, though.

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Clarification -- this *is* somewhat unconventional, I realize it needs more explanation.
A standard GFI outlet has two pairs of isolated wiring points. One (hot and neutral) for upstream ['line'], the other (ISOLATED hot / ISOLATED neutral) for additional outlet(s) [load] to be protected.
Typical ("series") wiring is hot/neutral from panel to GFI 'line', GFI 'load' (isolated) hot/neutral to next outlet and on to next (repeating as needed) making sure that the isolated neutral is 'continuous' from GFI to end of run.
NEC has specified that neutral must be a continuous conductor back to the panel. *PRESUMABLY* there's an exception to this for 'downstream' GFI protection, as the downstream outlet (isolated) neutral has to be wired to the GFI load neutral, *NOT* to the panel neutral bus.
What _I_ first did, motivated by the fact that (1) I was putting only 2 duplex outlets on a breaker, (2) the 2 duplex outlets were located 'distant' from each other (idea being to have 'as many as practical' different circuits 'within reach' at any given point), _and_ (3) as a result of (2), the outlets were usually in _opposite_directions_ from the panel. Each hot came out of the panel and into an immediately adjacent 'distribution box' where it was joined to a _separate_ wire going to each outlet (shorter to do 2 runs, then out to one outlet, back, and out to 2nd outlet.) (3 conductors in the wire-nut -- one to each outlet, and the 'common' back to the breaker) -- one to each outlet, and the 'common' back to the breaker) Neutral from each outlet was run all the way back to the panel. no breaks, no splices. This called for a GFI breaker at _each_ location. since neither 'downstream' of, or protected by the other. (Note: electrical inspector _did_ wonder at, and question, *all* those neutrals at the panel. more neutrals than circuits! :)
Subsequently, I've been able to find GFI receptacles for _not_ much more money than a quality duplex outlet. So, I treat the in wall wiring (hot/neutral) like a 'buss'. and pigtail off a tap on -each- one at each outlet. which connects to the _line_ side of a GFI outlet at each location. 'load' side goes unused. Each GFI can see only it's own pigtail and trips only if a device plugged into it fails. When it trips, it kills only the pigtail, and any other independently protected outlets on the 'buss' are still active.
There is an additional, but subtle, advantage to this set-up, _if_ there is a possibility of (young) children around. Since you've got a _separate_ GFI at -each- outlet position, you can disable the outlets, by hitting the 'test' button on all of them, and only resetting when actually needed for use.
Outlets with switches 'built in' are *handy*. Especially when it's not particularly obvious that they _are_ switches. *GRIN*
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snipped-for-privacy@host122.r-bonomi.com (Robert Bonomi) wrote:

Cite, please. I'm not aware of that one.
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snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) writes:

As I understand it, the grounded conductor may not be interrupted by a device; in other words, you must pigtail the grounded conductor rather than pass it through the receptacle or use the receptacle as a terminal strip to join the upstream and downstream grounded conductor. I wonder if there is an exception here for a GFCI device when protecting the downstream devices, tho.
scott
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