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"Doug Miller" wrote:

Way back when it was known as "Hogan's code" in honor of the chief electrical inspector.
Panel boards had to be switch and fuse since Hogan would not accept molded case c'bkrs.
This was for industrial, not residential.
There were all kind of cute things Hogan demanded and got, all of whiuch just increased the cost, not necessarily benefit.
Lew
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RE: GFI pricing
There are two ways to a GFI device, a C'bkr that gets mounted in a panel or a receptacle that goes into a wall box.
Both have the same "smarts".
The C'bkr GFI is manufactured by the Circuit Protective Device industry.
The receptacle GFI is manufactured by the Wiring Device industry.
The two are totally different businesses.
Different cost structures, different marketing methods, etc, etc.
There is significantly more price pressure on wiring device products than on circuit protective products.
Lew
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Doug Miller, Thank you for your reply. It is very informative and helpful!

Well, the drywall there is probably almost 40 years old and on it's second main panel. As long as I am replacing 3/4 of the drywall on 2 walls, maybe 3 before I'm finished, I may as well make the drywall near the main panel look Nice! : )

I'll tell ya Mr. Miller. There are folks here who don't believe I should be doing anything to any walls that have any live wires in them! I appreciate the precision with which you have described the operation above. It reminds me of an anecdote which I have found humorous since I heard it:
There was a old blues singer, "Big Joe Williams" who frequented the barrelhouses and who I believe, besides for his music, was known for his temper, fighting, drinking and just being a "rough character". One day he decided he wanted to buy a gun. His friends escorted him to an purveyor of firearms (i.e. a gun store). They said to the store owner, "Mr. Williams here would like to buy a gun", meanwhile standing behind Joe Williams emphatically shaking their heads and mouthing "No, No, No!"
I suspect that what you wrote may have caused a similar reaction from some readers. Maybe they'll speak up if I am correct. : ) I doubt that I'll be adding any CBs to any live panels anytime soon...
Thank you again for your assistance. I'm hope to make meaningful progress during the next week.
Bill
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wrote:

Oh, well, as long as you're redoing most of the drywall anyway...

Wusses. <g>
If you have to cut into a wall that you know, or suspect, has live wires inside it, use a utility knife. Not a saw. A utility knife won't extend through the drywall far enough to hit a wire, and even if it does the wire will simply move out of the way.

:-)
That's up to you. Certainly it's safer to kill the power to the panel first, but if you're careful about where you put your fingers it's only slightly safer.
At SWMBO's insistence, I never work in live panels alone. And at *my* insistence, SWMBO never works in live panels at all. She knows what she's doing (degreed engineer). The issue is that she knows CPR, and I don't.
Another rule of thumb is to keep one hand in your pocket or behind your back. If you're wearing rubber-soled shoes, it's nearly (but not completely) impossible to get a fatal shock if you have only one hand in the panel. The greatest danger in AC comes when the current passes across the heart: from hand to hand, or from hand to opposite foot. I've been stung a couple of times; that encourages a healthy respect for 120VAC, but it also helps to dispel exaggerated fears of it too. The last time, about five years ago, the back of my hand was against the panel chassis and I inadvertently brushed the tip of my index finger against a live busbar, so the grounding path was just the length of my finger plus half of my hand. I felt it up the the shoulder; half an hour later, I could still feel it in my elbow. It *hurts*. Make no mistake about that. But I'm still alive.

You're quite welcome, Bill. Keep asking questions -- it's the best way to learn.
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Get a qualified electrician to do it. This guy is going to get you killed.
---
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snipped-for-privacy@www.giganews.uk.> wrote:

LMAO. You're completely clueless.
Still think you can see a framing nail at 500 meters?

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On 6/2/10 8:32 AM, Doug Miller wrote:

That's what I was going to say. :-)
--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
  Click to see the full signature.
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On Jun 2, 5:58am, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:
t> wrote:

with plumbing known to be behind the wall (the builder stuck the mounting hardware through the main drain line from the upstairs bathroom). Set the Roto-Zip depth to 1/2" and have at it. Finish with knife.
Roto-Zips make a mess, but the cuttings are larger than a lot of saws so it's easier to clean up.
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Yes, some of this is nonsense. Having the GFCI at the receptical is more convenience to reset and easier to see what happened if it trips.
Breaker panel GFCIs have been brutally expensive in years past compared to receptical types. They are getting cheaper. Many bubble tubs are wired with a receptical type GFCI at the panel, labelled and then a circuit taken to the tub due to price differences.
Tripping faster is nonsense. The GFCI senses differential current. OTOW it compares the hot leg current with the neutral current to see if they are the same. If there is a difference then there is current leaking to ground and a fault in the equipment. It does not protect the equipment from stalled currents or internal shorts unless it goes to the case. Mostly it protects the human by tripping out fast so the time the fault travels through your body is limited. Contrary to what some say they do not limit the actual current level amount. This does not matter where it is done.
I am not in the UK despite what the OCD boy thinks.
---
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No, a panel GFCI and an outlet GFCI are redundant. You need *one* GFCI per circuit, extras won't help. You need *one* breaker per circuit. Breakers and GFCIs serve two different purposes.

If you use a 30 amp breaker, you have to have everything permanent on that circuit rated for 30 amps - wiring and outlet. That means your TS needs a 30 amp plug, although code does not require the TS to have wiring rated for 30 amps. If you *do* put a 20 amp rated tool on a 30 amp circuit, it would be prudent (but not required by code) to put additional protection on that's sized for the tool.

I wouldn't use 14 gauge wire at all in a shop - that's limited to 15 amps, and many of my tools need 20 amp anyway, which means 12 gauge.
As for putting two 120v outlets on a single 240v wire - check with your local code and find out what the rules are. Most likely, you'll at least need to use a ganged breaker to protect the branch properly.
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Yes. By panel GFCI, I meant a C-B with a built-in GFCI. I apologize for not being more careful in my writing. It is nice to know that having a GFCI at the panel suffices!

Thank you. I had been thinking about this ever since it came up. In my situation, I was thinking that the prudent thing to do, is to stick with the 20 Amp CBs, and consider installing heavier wire where I think I might like to have it someday. I learned "plenty" about 20, 30 and 50 amp 240v plugs and outlets a few months ago!

That's what I had in mind (ganged breaker). The reference to 14-3 was a momentary slip-up on my part. As I see it, and as someone else surely brought to my attention, is that the problem with such a circuit configuration is that it can be half-live and half-dead. Potentially confusing!
Thank you for your help! Bill
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Bill, here is something from the Antifaq I hope it helps:
5.1 HOW DO I WIRE MY SHOP?
As my friend Doug, the journeyman cabinetmaker, says: there's only four things you gotta know about being an electrician:
S--- flows downhill, Payday is on Friday, It may be s--- to you but its bread and butter to them, and Every asshole is a potential customer.
Oops! That was about plumbers. Forget it. Anyway, Doug is just jealous of plumbers 'cause they make more money than cabinetmakers, just like Tom.
Actually, all the regulars and most of the newbies on the wreck are electrical experts. That's why any thread on wiring and electricity gets so many responses. Most of us work with electricity all the time. After all computers and power tools are electrical, and so's the TV we watch Norm on. If you want to change the plug on your tablesaw, you still need to know everything about wiring and amps and volts and watts and volt-amps and wire gauges and phases and power factors and impedance and resistance and plug configurations and panel sizes and capacitors and motors and switches and electrical codes.
But that's OK, don't be afraid. You can trust any wiring and electrical advice from anybody on the wreck, apply it and be absolutely sure that it will meet code and be perfectly safe. No point in getting ripped off by electricians or consulting an inspector. Just ask away on the group and you can be sure of getting a whole lot of accurate and consistent responses, just like when you ask any math question of all the rocket scientists on the wreck.
HTH
Luigi
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news:9ca52b6c-e329-4a93-bc9a-
Just ask away on the group and you can be sure of getting a whole lot of accurate and consistent responses, just like when you ask any math question of all the rocket scientists on the wreck.
Luigi,
Your concerns are well-taken. But I do not require a lot of consistent responses. I think if 3 different contractors showed up at my door, they would not be consistent. I do not even think they would try to understand my needs as well as the folks here do. I have earned a PhD in mathematics so I can field at least some of your math questions with some authority, just as some of the folks here have been able to field my questions about electricity with the same sort of authority. I think you are under-estimating the amount of intellect which is here. Why you choose to take this point of view I am uncertain. I think it is not so difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff. It is more difficult to navigate my attic--but I am working on that! : ) I wonder how many people learned something useful about GFCI today? I know I did--or at least, I think I did!
Best, Bill
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Luigi is giving you good advice, here.
If you are not familiar with electrical work or the electrical code get a qualified electrician that can wire these things properly for you. You have received some advice that can be very dangerous, here.
If an Electrical Inpsector finds some of it you may be taking your wiring out and redoing some. That can get frustrating and costly.
---
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snipped-for-privacy@www.giganews.uk.> wrote:

Time to put up or shut up, Josepi. Specifically what "very dangerous" advice has he received, and why is it dangerous?
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news:9ca52b6c-e329-4a93-bc9a-
Bill, here is something from the Antifaq I hope it helps:
5.1 HOW DO I WIRE MY SHOP?
As my friend Doug, the journeyman cabinetmaker, says...
Luigi Zanasi, I see you pasted from something called "rec.woodworking's Antifaq". I never saw it referenced here before. Since you didn't post any of your own words, unless you wrote the Antifaq, what point were you trying to make? Sorry, if your post was intended as a joke--sometime humor passes by me unnoticed as such.
Best, Bill
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wrote in message

Luigi seems to be the keeper of the Anti-FAQ. Read it when you've got time, it's well worth it. (Be sure to clear the space between your tongue and cheek--you'll need it.)
Btw, at the bottom of the Anti-FAQ there's a copyright note: Real copyright: Copyright (c)1998-2005 by Luigi Zanasi all rights reserved. You can't copy this thing for any reason. It's now mine, mine, mine, mine, mine. I stole it fair & square. Neener neener!
Puckdropper
--
Never teach your apprentice everything you know.

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On Jun 2, 4:49am, Puckdropper <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote:

http://www.yukonomics.ca/wooddorking/antifaq.html for the latest version.
I gave up on it when Leon posted the all new 21st century questions in this post: http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.woodworking/msg/bf89d87a7c0732b2?hl=en
Luigi
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[...]

Actually, most of the electrical advice given here *is* sound, and there are enough people here who understand it well that unsound advice meets with rapid and accurate refutation.
If you're concerned about any advice you get here, try asking the same questions over at alt.home.repair -- several professional electricians used to post there regularly, but the only one I remember seeing there recently is "RBM".
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