Shop Wall and Electric

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belt now, and is working two jobs this summer to earn money for the fall semester. He's also about half-way through a fairly ambitious project on his car ('96 Firebird, 3600 V6): swapping out the automatic transmission for a five-speed stick. Car's up on jackstands in the garage now. I'll be helping him put the manual transmission in there tomorrow evening after he gets home from work.
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"Doug Miller" wrote

endabgered species, it will probably be worth some money someday.
Tell him to take care of it and it will turn into an investment of sorts one of these days.
And he is one of the good ones. He is gonna make you proud of him, again and again.
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Probably too late for that... the car was trashed by the second-previous owner -- DWI, ran off the road and over some object that tore the oil pan off, with consequent ruination of the engine. My wife's brother bought the wreck and a replacement engine, then he and my son spent the summer two years ago putting it back together, and when they were finished my son bought it from him. About six months later, my son crashed it and tore up the front end pretty badly -- he and I spent last spring restoring it. So I'm not sure there's a lot of investment potential left any more...

Thanks for the kind words, Lee.
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Don't work with A/C ower then. it's *RE*VOLTING*. <groan>
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snipped-for-privacy@host122.r-bonomi.com (Robert Bonomi) wrote:

I'm shocked that I didn't see that coming.
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"No mho" says Tom, without reluctance.
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On Jun 6, 5:45pm, snipped-for-privacy@host122.r-bonomi.com (Robert Bonomi) wrote:

These jokes are beyond my capacitance. They amply deserve to be inducted into the Groaner Hall Of Fame.
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Say watt? You should be kicked in the shorts for that.
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I'm open to other suggestions than a kick in the shorts.
I would resist that with all of my power.
Please relay that to all involved.
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wrote:

I'm open to other suggestions than a kick in the shorts.
I would resist that with all of my power.
Please relay that to all involved.
I think this has impeded Henry's thread. Some may recoil or choke if they are wound too tight.
Contact information: Normally closed.
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snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) writes:

Do keep in mind that Josepi is posting from the UK, where the code may differ.
scott
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wrote:

That doesn't make any difference: branch circuit overcurrent protection is there to protect the branch circuit wiring, not the loads. If you want to protect a load, put a fuse on the load -- which, as I understand it, is pretty common practice in the UK, which makes his ignorance of the purpose of branch circuit overcurrent protection even less excusable.
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Yup.
Unless you have some pretty hefty machinery, about the only things you'll find "hard-wired" in a UK home are an electric cooker or water heater*. All else is via "13 amp" plug and socket. The plug top houses a fuse of maximum rating 13A (hence the name) but you can get fuses as low as 1A.
Now, remembering that everything here is nominally 240V (avoids many of the complications I read here and elsewhere about the system in the States), 13A gives you up to around 3kW, which is a fairly sustantial load.
The common way of feeding such sockets is on a "ring main", where the power feed leaves the consumer unit, loops via every socket on the circuit and back to the consumer unit, using 2.5 mm sq twin and earth cable, protected with a 30 or 32A fuse or circuit breaker in the consumer unit. However, I understand that in new builds, radial circuits are finding favour once more.
The system normally works well but in a workshop, if you have got a lot of "big stuff" that might be running at the same time, one has to wire appropriatly
*Oops! forgot the electric shower.
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snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) writes:

While I agree with you, just to play devil's advocate, I usually run my 2HP dust collector (240v) simultaneously with a 3HP tables saw, planer or bandsaw. That said, all my 240v tools are on dedicated circuits.
I do have the 240V shop heater (Dayton, ceiling mount) on the same 240 circuit as the shaper, simply because I don't use the shaper that often (and I ran out of slots in the subpanel).
Compressors are a strange beast, since they may start at anytime the pressure switch hits some threshold (yet again, I've got mine on a dedicated 120v/20A breaker).
scott
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On 6/1/2010 4:34 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

As are mine.

I run mine on a 120v non-dedicated circuit that, being in a garage "shop" on residential property, is required by local code to be GFCI protected, but I've never had any trouble with the setup at all. The 20A circuit is shared with a small fan, some undercounter fluorescent lighting, battery charger, and the occasional shop vac.
One of the good things about a dedicated circuit is that it's exempt from GFCI protection requirements in most locales where they are required in "garages" (which is most of them in the US).
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IIRC if you use a NEMA L5-20P on that circuit, the GFCI isn't required. That was the approach I took (since I'm also in the garage).
scott
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All my 120v shop outlets are quad boxes, with the left outlets on a separate breaker than the right ones. I run 12/3 to them and use a ganged breaker so you never have a half-live box.
I've found a ceiling mounted 240v outlet to be *very* handy. It's not a locking outlet; if you trip over the cord you want it to just pull out.
I have two sets of lights - the regular basement lights, and extra shop lights. One tripped breaker is not enough to plunge the shop into darkness.
All my shop-specific circuits are off a shop-specific panel, which I can disconnect at the main panel for safety if needed.
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I bought a "shop specific" panel already. I've already considered that the lighting should be on separate circuits. I'm glad I bought a bigger panel than I thought I needed at the time (I bought the 24 pole one Lew advised).
Thank all of you for helping me to learn more about these matters!
I am surely not an expert and don't pretend to be one here. I have a couple of follow-up questions.
1. If having GFCI at the outlet and at the C'Breaker is redundant, then how come they now required GFCI at the outlet in bathrooms? Someone, I think a maintenance person, explained to me that having it at the outlet is more effective because it is closer to the source--and trips significantly faster/easier. Is this nonsense?
2. Consider running 30 Amps to the 240v outlets as has been suggested. A Grizzly G0690 TS is 15 Amps (240v) and Grizzly suggests that it should be on a 20 Amp circuilt. Does this imply it would be prudent to use a 20 Amp fuse near the connection to help protect the equiptment. Lew always said that the CBs are there to protect the lines and Not the equiptment.
3. It was suggested to run 2 120v branch circuits. Fine to run these off of one 14-3 cable?
4. Any problem with ripping down all of the drywall around the main panel for a while so I can "see everything"? I'm intending to install the subpanel adjacent to the main panel. I will of course turn off the main-breaker in the main panel before I do anything and I will keep in mind that the lines going into the main panel are still live.
I think that the "worst" part of this whole operation may be drilling vertically up into the attic where there are already so many wires coming out of the main panel--and it's neer impossible to view from the attic because it is so close to the eave. I suspect I'll be "fishing" with a coathanger, stapling 8 feet along the attic framing and then going down into the wall. I think that my own standards are higher than those who have worked in the attic before...I've started wrapping plastic conduit around some of the small wires passing through.
I hope I'm not the only one who has learning something from this thread. Thanks!
Bill
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wrote:

That's *not* required. At least not by the NEC. All the NEC requires is that the outlets "shall have ground-fault circuit interrupter protection". It does not specify where that protection is located.

Yes, it is. Be careful taking wiring advice from this person. Even if the outlet is 100 meters from the breaker, the difference in trip speed due to the distance is on the order of half a microsecond.
There is one legitimate reason for putting the protection at the outlet: it's easier to reset if it trips -- mostly because it's easier to find.

Lew is right. But what do you think you might need to protect the equipment from? Consider this: you use 0.5A light bulbs on a 15A circuit all the time and never worry about it.

NO. You definitely want 12-3 with a 20A breaker for shop use.

Yes: you create a lot of unnecessary drywall repair work for yourself. All of the really important stuff to see is inside the main panel; what do you expect you might see behind the drywall besides a bunch of cables?

If the feed to the subpanel is coming from lugs in the main panel, then yes, you need to power off the main. If it's coming from a circuit breaker in the main panel -- which is a much better idea -- then there's really no need to power off the main as long as you don't put your fingers in places they don't belong. Make sure that the circuit breaker feeding the subpanel is off before you connect the feed to it, otherwise the shaft of your screwdriver becomes live, which could lead to unpleasant surprises. And let's be clear here: I am NOT talking about the disconnect breaker in the subpanel; I'm talking about the breaker that you put in the main panel to connect the subpanel feed from.

Always a good thing to remember. :-)
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Miller) wrote:

Meant to add this, too: Although that's not required by the NEC, it could be a requirement of your _local_ codes. Chicago, for example, has some requirements that go waaaay beyond what the NEC demands. Something about a bad fire a while back, I think... Don't know for sure if this is correct, but I seem to remember hearing a few years ago that Baltimore and Philadelphia have codes that are more restrictive than the NEC as well.
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