Semi-OT What's Wrong Here?

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Agreed. One of the HD stores I go to has at least two wheelchairs available for those that need it and at least one person working there who uses a wheelchair. He works in the woodworking tools section. The washrooms there are wheelchair accessible too. This is Canada I'm talking about so there aren't any ADA rules in effect to guarantee this stuff, at least not yet.
Only one time did I have a disability related problem at this store. Went into the washroom to use the single accessible stall (there were 2 other regular sized ones) and there was a HD employee already in there. Knew he was an HD employee because I could see the edge of his orange HD smock hanging down from the hook. Waited and waited 20 minutes for this guy to come out. Knew he was reading he paper because I could hear him turning the pages. I eventually asked another HD employee to find a manager for me. Just as the manager came by, the HD employee came strolling out of the stall. I'd have spent the time to really give him shit, but I had other priorities to deal with. Next time, my limit is ten minutes max before I start hammering on the door to the stall. Either that or invade the stall in the women's washroom.
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Upscale,
    Just out of curiosity, have you had any significant issues with places not accomodating wheelchairs, despite not having an ADA type act? I ask because I would expect that most businesses would make reasonable accomodations just as good business. Having been involved in a construction project at one church where the number of required handicapped spaces was absurd relative to our known requirements, and now being involved in another construction project at a different congregation where, if we follow the rules for the building capacity, we will be ridiculously under our requirements for such accomodations, I have found that the "big hammer solves all problems" approach of government fiat is not always the best approach to solving problems.
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You're going to regret asking me this because you'll get an earful. You might want to take this conversation offline.
The answer to your question is a categorical "YES". I live in Toronto, Canada's largest city. I'm willing to bet that at least 75% of restaurants and buildings in Toronto are not accessible to wheelchairs and at least 95% of them don't have wheelchair accessible washrooms. Smaller businesses do not see the value in spending the money for ramps or elevators for Toronto's disabled population. For the past twenty years or so, new office buildings are wheelchair accessible, but accessible washrooms in these buildings are few and far between. I can give specific examples of MANY >40 story office buildings in Toronto without accessible washroom access anywhere except maybe one on the first floor. What about disabled clients? They don't exist for some reason? In many cases, historical heritage has allowed government and public offices to escape the mandate that all public buildings be made accessible.
Our subway system is only 1/3 accessible with elevators after two five year plans and one ten year plan to make them all accessible. While the Toronto Transit system has been implementing low floor and accessible buses as fast as they can afford them, there's a number of areas served solely by streetcars that certainly are not accessible and no surface route buses running.
Wheeltrans, the specialized transit system for the disabled is hopelessly overbooked with wait times often approaching two hours and ride times often running in excess of three hours. Imagine going to a job everyday where you had to ride three hours to work and three hours to get home after waiting several hours for pick up in both directions? I've actually had to quit a job because the waiting and travelling time took longer than the hours I was working.
I live 100 yards from Yonge and Bloor a location many consider the centre of Toronto. I know this city. Bigger, upscale restaurants are starting to change their premises to accommodate the disabled, but the fast food restaurants are not. McDonalds, Burger King, Wendy's, Kentucky Fried Chicken, Taco Bell, ad infinitum, I have never seen one wheelchair accessible washroom in ANY of these chains. At best, they're located in a shopping mall and leave that kind of thing to the mall designers. Imagine one or two wheelchair accessible washrooms in a 100+ store shopping mall capable of handling 1,000's of people concurrently? What percentage of people are disabled? 10%-15%?
When I go to movie theatres, although most do have accessible washrooms on the premises, I often get in verbal arguments with people who use them instead of walking the extra 50' to the regular public in movie washrooms.
Need to hear more? Email me privately.
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Nope, thanks, you answered my question.
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A response to this. The lack of government fist has allowed many (most) businesses to dismiss the idea of spending money for disabled access. It might seem like it's good business to enable access for the disabled, but the reality of the situation is a direct contradiction to this idea.
In Ontario, one recent former premier (Mike Harris(may he rot in Hell)) enabled an ODA (Ontarians with Disabilities Act) that had absolutely no teeth when it came to mandating accessibility for the disabled. His belief was that business would do the right thing if their own accord. (What a pile of crap!) The current premier (Dalton McGuinty) is mulling over an ODA with substantially more clout, but it's an ongoing process. That's provincially. There is nothing on the horizon that I've ever heard for a National disabilities act for Canada.
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I know for a fact that many churches in Toronto have made significant changes to enable access for the disabled. I consider churches to be private organizations, not part of the commercial apathy that pervades Toronto's business community when it comes to disabled access. It would make sense too. As far as I'm concerned, a church survives on the good will of it's congregation, many of them who might be disabled or elderly. Access makes sense, something completely lost on Toronto's business community.
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Unfortunately, in the US, governments don't, thus they are treated as businesses and must set things up according to the federal formula of x spaces per y occupants of the building in question. As a church, we would not want to have any of our members with disabilities unable to access the church, thus regardless of the number of members or guests with mobility difficulties, we would make provision to accomodate those people. As I mentioned in my examples, in one case when we added on, we were required to provide 4 spaces -- in the entire history of the congregation we had never had more than two people at a time who needed such accomodation, and for long periods of time, we had no one who needed them -- for a small congregation the expense of adding parking lot and then consuming 50% of the expansion for spaces that would not be used was a burden on the members that didn't seem right. At our current congregation, we have a large number of elderly people (for some reason Arizona seems to attract that type of person :-) ). Strictly following the letter of the law would leave us short by several spaces the number of accomodations we need to provide to accomodate all of our members.

Both good will and also simply because it's the right thing to do out of caring for those in our midst.
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Mark & Juanita wrote:

I can top that story. It is at least conceivable that more handicapped persons might join the congregation (at which point I'm confident the congregation would have been happy to expand the accomodations anyhow) but I suppose also some handicapped persons might be inspired to join the congregation becuase of the surplus accomodation. Not nearly as likely in the story below.
A few years back I stopped in at a local bar/package store (carryout) I had not visited in a number of years. The local topography was such that the parking lot rose gently up to main entrance so that it and the whole interior floor were basicly at grade. The building was (probably since first built) handicapped accessible without any special consideration. I bet the guys delivering kegs and beer cases appreciated that too.
Anyhow, the first thing I noticed was that a lot of remodeling had been done. Then I noticed a stage with a miror behind it had been added to the side. E.g. the owners had converted the bar to a strip club. Then I noticed that there were two railings between the stage and the audience, the outer railing was about 30 inches in front of the inner railing and inclined at a slope of about 12/1. Yes, that's right. The bar was required to build-in wheelchair access to the stage so that there would not be any architectural barrier for wheelchair-bound strippers they might hire.
In this case "build it and they will come" didn't seem likely.

No kidding. I'd think so too.
But I've read that among the worse offenders prior to laws requiring accomadations were some high class restaraunts. Not did many not provide assistance simply out of good will, but many actually refused service to persons in wheelchairs and even after many were notrious for 'losing' reservations, if someone in the party that made them showed up in a wheelchair.
Maybe those stories were true, maybe not, I never checked and since then I've learned to eb lot more skpetical of such stories.
Oh -- I have no trouble at all believing yours however.
--

FF


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building ramps for folks who don't exist. I wonder if the government agencies could produce even one instance of a wheel chair bound stripper.
And even if they could, would she want to work like that?
And even if she did, who would hire her?
What next? Water ramps for goldfish?
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Mark & Juanita wrote:

+
+ First, it's not about the walk to the HD inside and out, it's about the weather. They put handicapped people closer to the door as some handicaps take longer to get in and out of vehicles. The same amount of time it takes someone from the farthest spot to get to the door, the handicapped person may just be getting to the door. My father worked with a (Mostly) quadraplegic person at IBM (say Hyatt accident) and they verified that the place they were having a meeting was handicapped accessible (before A.D.A), the place said yes. When they got there they found out you needed a room key to swipe open ALL the restrooms. One of the managers called the hotel management and said they left a deposit outside the door. This whole get together was supposed to be about making computers more accessible (the Hyatt really brought to their attention).
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As I was walking toward a chain drugstore a man parked at the red painted curb marked FIRE LANE and locked his car and I commented "Plenty of parking places in the lot" and he replied "I'm only going to be a minute" to which I responded "Even the handicapped" and he said "I'm not handicapped" and I commented "You certainly are mentally handicapped!".

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I hate to admit it, but I have Hepatitis C and cirrhosis. Unable to work due to so many symptoms. Anyone looking at me might think I am a healthy, able-bodied semen (as a friend was once listed in a employment line). Truth is, I can hardly walk 200 feet without being out of breath, dizzy, and fatigued. Yep, I use my Michigan diploma (an Ohio State joke) when I need to. Days I feel OK, I park and walk.

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probably a poor vertically challenged middle aged guy being treated for over compensation..
mac
Please remove splinters before emailing
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On 7/4/2005 2:18 PM mac davis mumbled something about the following:

can't/shouldn't own a Corvette.
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Odinn
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