Semi OT-B&D profits way up

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I guess that since Black and Decker reported profits have almost doubled, there isn't much of a chance for them to bring any of their business back to the States. During the Chicago WWing show, I walked around the floor and looked at a lot of the boxes to see countries of origin. More than ever 'Made in China' is sweeping the industry. Damn shame. Mark
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Mark,
Haven't you heard out sourcing is good for the country????
--
Rumpty

Radial Arm Saw Forum: http://forums.delphiforums.com/woodbutcher/start
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On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 20:03:21 -0400, Rumpty wrote:

It is when other countries outsource jobs to us. The latest numbers show we insource about 6.5 million jobs from other countries - that is foreign companies hire 6.5 million American workers in the US, and the trend is insourcing gaining on outsourcing.
-Doug
--
"A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always
depend on the support of Paul." - George Bernard Shaw
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sure. when the american dollar loses value in the world economy, insourcing gains on outsourcing.
randy
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says...

There is just no such thing as good news with you, is there?
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Whenever I read that statistic, the accompanying evidence cites companies like Toyota and BMW that manufacture cars in the US for North America. But this isn't really outsourcing by those companies. It's just moving the manufacturing to the customers' country. Now if Toyota exported cars made in the US back to Japan, *that* would be outsourcing akin to our situation. But I suspect they don't go that far.

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On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 03:26:18 +0000, Guy wrote:

One would think that what is good for one would be good for all - and the reverse. I spoze we should ban outsourcing/insourcing and put job cops on the borders? I'm of the opinion that good job providers should be encouraged to provide jobs no matter where the goods they produce are consumed - but I'm also sure this doesn't make sense to those who have the "burger flipin jobs ain't woth it" agenda.
-Doug
-- "A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." - George Bernard Shaw
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Doug,
I can understand what you are saying but the fact of the matter is jobs in this country are being outsourced to other countries (like China) and the people who used to do those jobs here either cannot find work or are, in many cases, woefully underemployed.
There is nothing the matter with Delta making table saws in China by people living in China as long as the table saws they are producing in China are sold in China.
But I see a big problem when Delta starts making tables saws in China by people living in China and selling those table saws to people living in the US and the people who used to make the table saws cannot afford to purchase one because they are working flipping burgers at two McDonalds and a Burger King while trying to be a Wal-Mart greeter during the rest of their waking hours.
I see nothing the matter with flipping burgers and it is good experience for the average teen and young 20-something to get their feet wet in the working world. But when you are forced to do it after you get your engineering degree, and MBA, 20-odd years of work experience, and have a spouse, kids, and mortgage, I certainly DO see a problem with that.
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Snip

So do I, seems someone with an engineering degree or a MBA should have learned more and or should be smart enough to find a job. As you point out, and thank goodness, a college education does not guarantee a form of "affirmative action" that guarantee's a job. It simply blows me away what some of the colleges are turning out. I cannot believe that many of these people have degrees at all. They have no common sense.
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Leon,
I think we are saying two different things but with the same result. I agree that there are a lot of people who come out of so-called educational institutions and don't know their hind-end from a hole in the wall, but that is something completely different than what I was trying to say.
For example where I work, the company outsourced about 35 programming jobs to an eastern country (well, east of the U.S.) and every single one of those people had at least a bachelor's degree and more than a few had at least part of a master's degree. These people had to train their replacements by obviously explaining the particular things they worked on. Talk about a demeaning thing to do! And, to top it off, these poor souls had to actually teach almost every single one of the 'programming experts' the outsourcing company sent over how to program but, what the heck? It is costing the company 40% less to have people pretending to be programmers.
Now all but two of the people have 'real' jobs over 11 months later--and those two people had to move to different states. One took a 25% pay-cut to program and the other took an almost 40% pay-cut to be an operator.
Several of the others have jobs like stocking shelves at a local Wal-mart or grocery store. A couple have found nothing and are doing nothing. Meanwhile, these latter ones are talking to the state unemployment office which has been outsourced to Mexico--now, explain that one! There are citizens in many states taht are unemployed but these states outsource their work to help people in their state get a job.
Every single one of these people are bright (believe it or not) but simply cannot find a job--even a horrible one. One of the reasons is because they are over-qualified and companies don't want to take a chance on them. Well, doh!
That is an example of what I was talking about where I don't think somebody who has paid their dues by getting an education, being gainfully employed for many years, and has given back to the country they are living in by buying houses, paying taxes, etc. should be forced to flip burgers just because it only costs a person living in China $4,000 US dollars a year to live like a king.
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i beg of each and every one of you. if you are ever put in this position, do NOT do it. just smile and walk.
remember when you were told as a kid 'this will go down in your permanant record'? by now im sure you know what bull that was. the same goes with past employers. if your new employer knows you ate shit from your last employer guess what he expects? you're better off to look your next employer in the eye and say 'i was asked to train my foreign replacement and i refused'. you may not get that job, but it will save you lots of time. if the new boss doesnt like what you said, he was probably planning on screwing you. if he does, you may have found the right job. a company usually wants competent people and pays for them, or toadstools and pisses on them. dont be a toadstool. kissing too much ass in the interview simply sets you up to be kissing more ass for the next 10 years.
and right now, we got engineers kissing ass for mc jobs. and that isnt right. but ya know why that is? because too many engineers are WILLING to kiss ass for mc jobs. you dont need to be part of any official union to join the 'i wont work for peanuts' club. that extra week or two of pay you get training your replacement will be gone long before your self esteem returns.
one last myth to bust. your next employer really doesnt honestly expect you to have left on perfect terms with your last employer. i mean come on, you're looking for a new job. and if they do, trust me, you dont want to work there.
randy

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Well, xrongor, I agree with you. Wholeheartedly.
I was on the fringe of those people and the replacements needed to interview me and others in my department, too. I am one of 5 ADABAS and Oracle DBAs.
I sort of, kind of did what you said except I did help at the barest minimum. I told the guy who was heading up the outsourcing project that I did not want to answer their questions. I told him I despise that company, I despise their mission statement (which can be summed up in a few words: "Rape the American, steal his job, and let him gnash his teeth on the street while he tries to find work."), and I certainly despise the people I would talk to becausethey are the ones who are doing it.
And I told him I would say it to the guy(s) who were coming. He said I need to do what I need to do.
When the guys came to me, they stuck their hands out to shake mine and I looked at them and shook my head "No." They were extremely surprised. Then I proceeded to tellthem I hated their comapny, its mission statement, and I truly had a severe dislike for them. I answered their questions truthfully but curtly. They sat with me for about 15 minutes--everybody else did what you said NOT to do and these guys were with them for at least 4 hours a piece. And they kept coming back to everybody...except me.
This all happened around July of last year. Now, everytime they see me in the ha;;, they almost run away. If they NEED to come and see me, it's like they crawl over. It sort of feels good but I am still so darn pissed the 30+ are gone--and several were very good friends of mine, including one of the guys that moved his family.
All I can say is I said what I said and I did what I did and I am still here, so there may be something in what you say!
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You know, that was kinda my thought - if you refuse to train your replacement, what are they gonna do, fire you? Indeed, is the extra 2 weeks pay or whatever they may with hold, really worth it? Me, I'd say, screw (OWWR, sorta) you!
Renata
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when i was in college i had a job at a godfathers pizza. but i never had to work the closing shift. on weekends i would be off and partying early. first one out the door. so finally somebody asked me how i got away with never closing. i asked that person if they were asked, in the interview, if they would close. they said 'ya they asked me that'. i said 'what did you say to that question'. they said 'i told them i would'. i simply told them 'i said no to that question and i dont have to close'.
randy

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No. As always there are various pluses and minuses.

No.
Eliminate subsidies for outsourcing. Let companies succeed or fail on their merits.
Reverse the trend toward cronyism and favoritism in trade.
Negotiate standards of regulation across borders.

Jobs is but one facet of the issue.

Which agenda is that?

"Tax breaks for corporations [and their investors] were a major part of the administration's 2002 and 2003 initiatives. If class warfare is being waged in America, my class is clearly winning."
Warren Buffett, the second wealthiest man in the world, recently noted Berkshire Hathaway paid $3.3bn in tax last year, amounting to 2.5% of the total income tax paid by all US corporations.
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Which country?????
Rumpty wrote:

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For China maybe!
--
Jon Down
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:> More than ever 'Made in China' is sweeping the industry. Damn: shame.
: Mark,
: Haven't you heard out sourcing is good for the country????
Look no further than the Bush administration! They endorse it highly.
    -- Andy Barss
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On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:45:29 -0500, Mark wrote

This is why I keep looking at where stuff is made. As I replace more of my tools, I find them going from various colors to red as Milwaukee tools replace my others. While they don't make everything in the states, most everything seems to be made either in Germany or the US. There are some exceptions, but I'm willing to spend the extra $$ for quality tools I'm going to have to replace again for a long time and help out somebody other than China. I don't think we would be so harsh on Cuba if they had cheap labor and/or cheap goods to sell us.
Wayne
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Well - that's normal self-interest at work...
Consumers want the lowest price, stockholders want the highest returns...the company wants to survive.
Change the message that B&D gets - either from the consumer, or from the stockholders.
Rob
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