Selling woodworking tools on ebay - any pointers...

[Larry Blanchard]

And you ignored the Powell article :-). If you're too lazy to do a Google on "Bush bad intelligence" and the like, why should I do your work for you?

[JIM]

Clinton , Bush, Gore, yada yada yada.

It doesn't matter, because in Nov 95% of American voters are going to vote for a President who's has jerked off in a coffin and had a human femur up his ass.

Only in America.....

[Dave Hinz]

Because you're the one asserting that the three of them said they were wrong and it's been "all over the news". I havn't seen it anywhere, let alone "all over the news" so I'm asking you to explain your statement.

[Fly-by-Night CC]

So let's go back to early '03 when the Admin was building its case for invading Iraq. If one of these people had said, "It'll take 15 months,

810 US military lives, thousands (10s of thousands?) of Iraqi lives and over $100 billion but we're certain we'll find at least 3 WMDs." Would you have been supportive? How many months, years, lives, dollars are you willing to expend looking for things that might not have been there 15 months ago let alone today?

Let's suppose Hussein *did* have stockpiles in January '03 but they were subsequently spirited away to other countries after Saddam's government and military fell. Is the USA and the world more or less safe than when Hussein controlled them?

BTW, did you hear about the US government freeing and returning a terrorist to his home country of Syria? #27 on the wanted list was freed because the govt doesn't want to reveal any security methods or secrets that may be aired during a trial. I guess #28's feeling pretty releaved about now. Think this'll be the last the world hears of #27?

[Tom Veatch]

Reference:

Tom Veatch Wichita, KS USA

[Owen Lowe]

locate one.

[Dave Hinz]

Change of subject noted.

You seem to be unable to understand that the most likely reason that we're not finding all of the WMDs is that he was given way too much time to hide them and/or move them out of country.

I guess that depends on who has them. Thought you said there weren't any.

Gee, almost like they know certain things that they're not willing to tell the world. You know, protecting one's sources, not divulging that we are able to gather certain types of intelligence, that sort of thing? I know it's complicated but it may be that they know more about it than you do.

And of course, you'll be up there waving your "I told you so" flag when it does, because you'll never know (or acknowledge) the reasons that the US didn't want to show all of it's cards to get a small fish.

So, are you going to keep moving the subject around whenever I point out fatal flaws in your argument? I'm just asking so I can keep score.

[Charlie Self]

I hope there is no woodworking related subject that has RNC in its header.

Charlie Self "The test and the use of man's education is that he finds pleasure in the exercise of his mind." Jacques Barzun

[Fly-by-Night CC]

Not so much a change of subject; rather an attempt at a different tack since you don't seem able to see my point of view. (I believe I do see yours however - the 3 "WMDs" found are justification enough to have spent and sacrificed to date.)

You, likewise, seem to be having a difficult time answering my questions:

• Is everything spent and lives lost to date justified by the 3 wmds found so far?

• You obviously believe there are more, how much longer would you propose spending money and losing lives looking for things which may or may not be there?

*If Saddam shipped them to his neighbors or sympathizers, why didn't US Intelligence *know* that prior to '03?

Reading comprehension 101: "suppose." And which country/entity do you believe would want to be on the receiving end of Saddam's illegal weapons that wouldn't be a greater threat to the US than Saddam himself? Remember we had him contained, with no effective military might. *If* they existed in the last few years or so, I'd much rather that he had them than to have them spread out around the region and world under the control of much less centralized and monitor-able entities. It appears to me the US has no idea how long ago they existed, where they might be or who might have control of them - certainly doesn't inspire confidence.

So what's with the rhetoric about bringing terrorists to justice? It's an exercise in Catch-22.

Are you saying that when #27 does commit a terrorist act you'll be waving your "I supported the Administration in releasing this guy back to the world" flag? (My response will be similar to today - "What in the world were these people thinking?")

I'll do my best to keep my rebuttals plain and simple for you - in that light, you don't need to feel obligated in responding to any of the above. I'd appreciate replies to the following:

• Please tell me how you *know* that Saddam had wmds.

• Please tell me how long ago that you *know* Saddam had them under his control.

• Please tell me how long you *know* it will take to find what is to be found and the quantities.

[Dave Hinz]

See, you keep trying to make my point for me, and you're still not qualified to do so. Based on all available information, it is justified. Hell, it was justified just because he didn't comply with each of the UN resolutions, which were conditions of the _cease fire_ of Gulf War the First.

Could they have killed more people had they not been found?

Personally, I'm all for a "OK, look. SH was out of hand, we removed him. If your next head honcho gets too big for is britches, we'll remove him too if he starts making hostile noises to us and claiming he has all of the WMDs that SH hid. Behave, or we'll be back. Maybe next time we won't rebuild all of your infrastructure for you while you shoot at us."

Neither of us knows the internals of the intelligence organizations. It's not all James Bond, though.

Odd that even your boy Flipper (wups, I mean Kerry) said he needed to be stopped, if he was so constrained.

I'm sure he knows exactly where they went, as do his friends. Somehow this is our fault?

Maybe we know what we know about him because of a covert source we're not willing to lose? I don't know, and you don't either.

People who know more about the situation than either of us weighed the relative risks of advertizing how we know what he did, or in letting him go. Would you rather we, oh, I don't know, keep him as an enemy combatant without any representation or charges?

1. We sold them to him.
2. He said he had them.
3. Clinton, Bush, and Kerry said he had them.
4. We're now finding them.

Know? Why don't you ask Kerry, he "knew" also.

Red herring, and you show the weakness of your point of view by resorting to a tactic such as this.

[Doug Winterburn]

One *good* thing about letting this guy loose - there's no bag limit on him in the wild.

-Doug

[Fly-by-Night CC]

I apologize - I was attempting to drive my point but resorted to poor methods. We're not going to see eye-to-eye on this. I don't trust the current administration to make decisions that will help ensure long term peace for the country or the world; you do. I feel the country was fed a load of falsehoods and misinformation; you feel it was truthful and actionable. Such differing views on the same issue makes life interesting. Take care and if the purported wmd's are out there I certainly hope we find them as well as bring individuals intent on harming world peace to justice with as little bloodshed and alienation of the world's people as possible.

[Dave Hinz]

Noted and appreciated.

Yes.

Ah, but you seem to think it was W doing the misleading, rather than being misled along with the rest of the world. _if_, as you postulate, there are no more WMDs, which I doubt. Personally, I think he just had a lot of time to hide 'em and has done so.

I contend that you will continue to fail to acknowledge them once more of them are found. Hopefully the next troublemaker in that hotspot will be as noisy about things as SH was, so we know when to drop the hammer on him.

[Larry Blanchard]

I can't speak for others, but if we ever find those "massive stockpiles" we claimed he had, I'll post a "mea culpa" in every newsgroup that's seen my sig line.

How long do we have to not find those stockpiles before you do the same?

On another subject entirely (but still off topic), I see the Mexican trucks are on the verge of getting driving rights on US highways, courtesy of NAFTA. Sure glad I live up near Canada (although I do have a few nasty comments about Canadian cattle trucks).

[Dave Hinz]

One is enough to be a WMD, given the number of people it's designed to kill.

I'll happily say right now we've only found 2 or 3 9/11's worth of WMDs today; no hesitancy at all.

Do they have to pass the same safety checks as here? If not, why not?

[Larry Blanchard]

There was quite a bit about this in the press a few years back and, IIRC, the answer was no - that's what the problem was. As well as the minimal or nonexistent training required to drive a Mexican big rig. If truck and driver standards were the same, I don't think the access would have been delayed for four years. But if someone knows different, let me know. I am working from memory.

While it doesn't apply to the Mexicans, the problem with the Canadians is that they all come down our street to miss the Washington weigh stations. Besides the traffic, noise, and smell, our street isn't designed for the (over)weight and is deteriorating.

But after the mad cow, they've been restricted so things have been peaceful - I dread the day the restrictions are lifted.

BTW, the locals won't do anything about the problem for two reasons. The street east of us used to be the one they used and they had to rebuild a bridge. They put weight restrictions on that street to protect the new bridge.

The next street west of us leads past a big new shopping center and they don't want to restrict our street because they don't want the trucks on that street. So we're the stuckees.

[Tom Veatch]

Some links found on Google News search for "mexican truck access nafta court"

(this sucker opens a flood of popups!)

Veatch Wichita, KS USA

[Mark & Juanita]

Seems as if this violates state laws regarding deliberately bypassing weigh stations.

While the locals may not, the state troopers should, as this is reducing your state's revenues. In most states, deliberately bypassing these stations is illegal and subject to some pretty severe fines.