scrapers

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I have three Sandvik cabinet scrapers. Two rectangular and one curved. When properly sharpened they are real time savers. Sharpening a scraper properly takes about the same amount of time as a chisel or plane blade, but when your done it will shave off wood as fine as any smoothing plane. I was tought how to do it by a Danish cabinetmaker...I'll gladly post the procedure if you desire.
Walking in the forrest...
TJB

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On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 12:21:52 -0500, terry boivin wrote:

Yes, I'd like to see it... I'm especially curious how you sharpen a gooseneck scraper
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The myth about scrapers is that they give a better finsih than planes. They don't, but they don't abrade surfaces like sandpaper does, so no grain raising concerns.
As for fancy widgets for sharpenng scrapers, check how Tage Frid did it: a mill file and a 1" chisel.
All those silly gadgets that hold files square are a waste. And those carbide tool rod thingies, to give you soome magic hook angle. A scraper is a hand held piece of $6 metal. If the angle is wrong, then angle the scraper with your hands.
I use Knight planes, Lie Neilsens, I have an old Norris, my my Ray Iles infil smoother gets used a lot. Those planes have great and expensive irons. But the idea of spending more than a few bucks for a scraper blade is just plane silly.
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I really have to get the get hold of the books you seem to be reading or who ever you went to as a woodworking teacher..
A scraper will give you exactly the same kind of raised grain problems that removing stock by any other method will.
Wood is formed from interlocking strands of fiber. Raised grain, probably more accurately called raised fuzz, results from milled wood being dampened and then drying. When wet, the strands swell. When dried, they shrink. What does not shrink are the ends of fiber strands that were severed in the milling process. These remain standing proud of the surface and have to be removed with a very light touch to avoid severing more strands and ending up with the same situation you started with.
A scraper cuts and severs fiber strands just like any other means of milling wood and results in exactly the same situation and all the standard precautions have to be taken. Especially when using water based products..
--
Mike G.
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On Tue, 6 Jan 2004 15:07:57 -0500, "Mike G"

So is there a good or proper way to finish end grain then?
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End grain?
Don't know how it relates but, yes.
The only real problem with end grain is that wicks up finish and stain so well it looks much darker then the rest of the piece.
Just sanding end grain to a much fine grit, say 320, 400 grit will do a lot to mitigate the problem, then there is sealing it with shellac or commercial pore sealer.
Anything that improves the end grain over the rest of the wood will mitigate the problem including scraping. However, with a scraper, and since end grain is usually milled to some kind of profile, it is hard to match that profile without making a custom scraper and, if you don't match the profile, it's more work then it is worth, in my opinion, trying to get the profile evenly scraped.
Now if you are talking about the raised nubs of severed wood grain that results in what is called "raised grain" it's a simple matter of dampening the wood, letting it dry then giving it a ever so light scuff sand to remove the nubs. Naturally a sharp scraper can be used to do the job but you have to remember your purpose is NOT to remove material, just that little fuzz.
I've found that if the piece is not to be stained and a water based finish is to be applied removing these nubs is easier if you just apply one light coat of the finish and let it cure.The nubs will still remain standing but, stiffened by the finish they are easier to remove.
If stain is to be used I dampen a piece, let dry, remove nubs, before staining. While it's not quite as easy to remove the nubs if you try to do so after the stain is applied there is a good chance of accidentally cutting through the stain and spoiling it.
--
Mike G.
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On 06 Jan 2004 19:15:41 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (DarylRos) wrote:

I always heard it as they leave a better surface than sandpaper. I always considered a scraped surface almost identical to a planed surface.
Barry
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Hi Barry
Yes, they will leave a nice shiny surface which, unless you go way way up on grits, sandpaper won't. However, shiny or not, there are still severed fibers laying there waiting for the wood to be dampened. You won't have any problem, sanded, scraped, or planed, if you go directly to an oil finish, some degree of a problem with shellac, and lots of fuzz if you are using a water based product.
Picture strands of dried out cooked spaghetti all intertwined and running in one direction or better yet roman noodles. If you were to shave off a layer of X depth, most of the strands would still be intact, but some would be cut off leaving two tag ends at the surface of the shaved area. No matter what you shave your wood. or pasta. with you can't avoid shaving some strands so there are tag ends to raise their fuzzy little heads under the right conditions, like, when the wood is dampened either with a water based stain or water based finish, then dried and the stain or finish cures and the cells shrink back to size.
It's a simple matter of wood fiber structure and there is no magical way around it..
--
Mike G.
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On Tue, 6 Jan 2004 17:52:32 -0500, "Mike G"

I know. I didn't comment on the water absorbtion or grain raising.
I was thinking of the quality of the surface, due to it being severed and not scratched.
Barry
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On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 22:06:55 GMT, B a r r y B u r k e J r .

sometimes a scraper leaves a better surface than sandpaper. in softwoods sandpaper will probably leave a better surface     Bridger
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Not true. Nothing beats the clarity of a freshly planed surface. A scraped surface is not quite as good as a planed one.
I hate sandpaper.However, on something evil like curly bubinga, I think I would rather sand it. Or change woods.
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Someone in here mentioned Tage Frid...He was one of my professors at RISD nearly twenty years ago. Anyway, file the scraper's edge square and true then stone it to make as smooth as possible..(I usually stop at a #1200 grit stone) set the scraper flat on the edge of your workbench and run the back side of a chisel along the scrapers edge at a slight angle from vertical to create the fine burr. Don't forget to spit on the chisel first for lubrication. May sound silly but it does help. Goosenecks are done the same way but obviously it takes longer and curved stones are required.

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This is a bit off topic - but still relates to scrapers.
The scraper produces a very smooth surface. Certainly smoother that a 150 grit sandpaper. How does it affect the ability to stain the wood after scraping. When you use sandpaper beyond 150 grit, it makes it more difficult to effectively use a pigment stain (does not affect dyes). Does that mean I shouldn't use the scraper if I want to use a pigment stain?
Len ----------
tmbg wrote:

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It depends on where you want your pigment stain to go. Sanding leaves scratches in the wood and unless you do a good job of removing the scratches left by the previous grit with a finer grit paper, the pigments will love to collect in the scratches and highlight them. It takes no more looking that using an orbital sander with 120 grit paper on pine to see the effect. The target for pigments should be the pores of the wood, a scraper wont remove the pores, but it may tend to close them up a bit on some woods. neither paper or a scraper will drastically change the pore collection ability of the pigments.
Another benefit of a scraper, especially with soft woods like pine is they will leave a flat surface. Sanding will hollow out the soft areas and leave the surface irregular.
-Bruce
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So you scuff it up a little with the appropriate grit.
Don't get me wrong I love my scrapers and the are indispensable in some operations.
However, I think that all this swooning over scrapers has gone way over the top and has become more of a "me too" trendy thing which tends to happen when "new old things are rediscovered" A year or so ago you would have been lucky to find twenty people. in the group who had any idea what a scraper was or did. I know, I saw and answered a lot of the posts.
I defy anyone to look at two finishes done by any competent finishing person, one done with a scraper and one done with sandpaper, and tell which is which. Make that five pieces. It raises the odds on a good guess hitting the mark.
--
Mike G.
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On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 17:48:38 -0500, "Mike G"

I think it depends on the choice of finish.
If the piece is pigment stained, there is a much greater chance of seeing the difference, as some wayward scratches may be perfectly visible.
If the piece has an oil finish, especially if the finish was "wet sanded" with the oil, I agree with you.
Clear finishes right on the wood could go either way, depending on the type and color of wood and the skill of the sander / scraper.
My opinion only.
Barry
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You are, of course, correct, though the same can be equally stated for someone not familiar with the scraper and gets digs and chatter marks in the wood. That is why I specified "competent finisher".
Still, the points are worth mentioning for any type of wood preparation..
Take care Mike
--
Mike G.
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