SawStop vs. Bosch-- Let the Games Begin!!

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It seems Bosch has built the better mouse trap. Their brake doesn't destroy the blade and works on any sized bade, including dado sets. I wonder what the lawyer fees amount to? :-)
<http://www.woodmagazine.com/blogs/woodworking-blog/2015/03/16/bosch-develops-tablesaw-with-blade-brake-safety/
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On 3/16/2015 12:23 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

Cool!
The games that begin may in fact be in the courts. SawStop has countless patents on their design, including the blade dropping below the surface.
If they have not infringed on any patents this may in fact be the better mouse trap. My gut feeling has always been that SawStop drops the blade so that the belts go slack and the brake only has to stop the mass of the blade and not the motor too.
Second issue will be if Bosch will try to compete on the same level. While SawStop has only been around for 15 or so years, and marketing for the past 7~10 years, they do have proven heavy duty tables saws, the pro cabinet saw and the industrial cabinet saw. It will be interesting to see of Bosch targets that market too or if they will stay with their bench top models.
And if Bosch is successful is this good bye to the belligerent brands that chose to not incorporate the technology? Saws with this feature, Bosch and SawStop just might attract ALL of the consumers. Bosch has a slight advantage in that it offers the safety feature and does not carry the burden that SawStop has with those that refuse to buy the SawStop brand regardless of its benefits.
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On 3/16/15 12:47 PM, Leon wrote:

I'll tell you one thing, SawStop needs better demonstrators.
I just happened to walk into our local Woodcraft and there was a SawStop guy there demonstrating the table saw. He had the blade all the way up and when he started the saw it started making a horrible grinding racket, then stopped abruptly. Turns out he has the blade too far up and it was pressing into the table insert. I didn't know that was possible but he did it. It tripped the built-in breaker and he couldn't figure out how to reset it.
About 10 minutes later they figured it out and he did the hotdog trick.
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On 3/16/2015 1:39 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

Genius! The manager that opened my local Woodcraft about 7 years ago give notice and went to work for SawStop early this year. ;~)
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On Monday, March 16, 2015 at 12:47:48 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:



Profoundly advantageous safety features may not be enough. I remember all the debate here and everywhere else, mostly built in lies and innuendo that had full grown men crying desperate tears over the loss of civil rights, s creaming for the overthrow of the government, whispering about a grass root s backlash against the "jackbooted thugs" etc. Listening to their demands to water the tree of liberty with the blood of tyrants, I got a little fire d up myself and was going to join a local (maybe it was... maybe it wasn't. ..) militia.
Then I realized all I had to do was to pick out the saw I wanted and buy th at one, and at least some of my nanny state problems were solved. It was a quick fix.
To me, the hardest thing that Bosch will have to overcome isn't copyright i nfringement, operating protocols, etc. that are at this point exhaustively researched for challenges by legions of engineers/lawyers. What saved SawS top from being a good idea that went nowhere was the fact that they are dam n good saws. I used one to build a small set of cabinets and tables about 6 years ago and the saw I used was marvelous. It was "as shipped" from a l ocal tool supply company and was set up (not tuned up) on site. Had to hav e been one of the best saws I have ever used. The guy that takes care of i t was shop teacher and about 3 years ago he told me that in his high schoo l shop, it was still as well running and accurate as when I used it.
I can see contractor "site saw" like some are making these days getting gre at benefit from that technology, but don't know that they will be able to h it any kind of workable price point.
As far as a cabinet grade or professional shop grade tool, seems Bosch woul d be starting from square one. I have never seen Bosch big iron in a woodw orking (auto, yes) environment although I have several of their hand tools. I think it would be a long haul to get to the point where they could crea te and sustain a market for a new professional table saw, but possbily even longer to get to the kind of quality that SawStop is putting out.
Robert
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On 3/16/2015 3:20 PM, snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:

Yeah I never could quite understand the fear, no one has to buy a particular saw, just like no one has to buy a pick up truck, which have certain government mandated features the automobiles don't. Use saws or track saws would have been another option. I guess some wanted to be able to buy a SawStop with out the safety feature....

IIRC many years ago I saw a prototype SawStop TS and I could swear it looked exactly like a Powermatic 2000 other than color. I don't think Bosch would have too much of an issue building big iron machines as they are a long established company and they could do as SawStop, Powermatic, and Jet do, have China/Taiwan build the saw to their specs. As you said the trick will be getting copyrights. Maybe they have made a deal with SawStop...

I can see that being a great direction to go, contractor saws on job sites.

SawStop did it, but then SawStop really had no competition with these features...
It will be real interesting to see how this all plays out. If Bosch is successful there will be no excuse for others not to follow.
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Or maybe, Bosch has locked up the rest of the open patents so between them both, they've got it all locked up.
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On 3/16/15 12:23 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

Here she is!

http://youtu.be/nbDf2dpQVIY

http://youtu.be/nbDf2dpQVIY

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Nice. Any suggested retail price available? And, as someone mentioned before, I'd love to see a professional model.
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On 3/18/15 4:41 PM, snipped-for-privacy@none.com wrote:

I saw $1500 MSLP on one site.
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On 3/18/2015 3:41 PM, snipped-for-privacy@none.com wrote:

I'd love to see a professional model too....
A cabinet saw with that feature would be nice. ;-)
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On 3/18/2015 4:12 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

Interesting, and also interesting more expensive than the SawStop by a few hundred dollars. The SS seems to have a lot of cool features.
http://www.sawstop.com/table-saws/by-model/jobsite-saw#overview
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On 3/18/15 6:43 PM, Leon wrote:

The Bosch had a lot of cool features, too, from what I could tell. Also, I don't know what the SawStop MSRP is, but I'm thinking they are like Festool in that they don't allow much discounting by the retailer.
The Bosch may indeed sell for the same as the SawStop out the door. We shall see.
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On 3/18/2015 7:56 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

I think you are right about not having wiggle room for pricing but surprisingly Woodcraft has the SawStop on their site for $1299.00. http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/862994/SawStop-Jobsite-Saw-wCart-and-Fence.aspx

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On 3/18/15 10:54 PM, Leon wrote:

You just have to think the Bosch will sell for that price in the store. I don't see them going through the trouble to compete with the only other saw that does the same thing, without competing in price, too.
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On 3/18/2015 11:06 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

It will be interesting to see if the pricing equalizes. But you know Bosch is a German company like Festool. They may feel that their saw is worth the extra cash, and it may very well be. It might be smarter to be a bit more expensive especially if it compares equally to the SawStop. Someone always sells the same features for more money, it may as well be Bosch.
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On Mon, 16 Mar 2015 12:23:16 -0500

SS destrroys the blade when deployed? didnt know that
A few things come to mind with these "saftey" features.
the study about anti-lock breaking not having the effect that was expected. There was a reduction in collisions but not anywhere near industry projections
in other words people took more chances because their car came with ABS, over confident in the ABS
another thought, I think it's cirrus planes that have a ballistic chute attached to the airframe*** but you pull that and insurance says plane is a total loss
and yet another is all the extra cost/complexity worth it has it reduced accidents or do saw operators take more risks
does removing the need to use tools responsibly make more irresponsible operators
***that feature did sell a lot of planes but all the data on plane accidents and incidents (and there's a lot of data!) shows that high 90 percent are due to pilot error ok sure pull the chute when you screw up and walk away maybe, not all have survived even after chute deployment I recall an incident early on when poor guy pulled it and discovered the hard way that the wind was blowing 25knots at ground level
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On 3/18/2015 8:00 PM, Electric Comet wrote:

Cheap compared to cutting off you hand.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that has been hashed to death with no evidence to prove it. IMO, you may be more careful knowing a trip could save your fingers but cost you $200 for cartridge and blade.
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On Wed, 18 Mar 2015 20:36:38 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

This entire topic has been hashed to death! Couldn't you all just refer folks to the posts you made the last time Sawstop was mentioned?
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On 3/19/2015 12:18 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:

So has the entire topic of woodworking. This is current and well worth repeating if some one is interested.
If I hear of another comment about the ancient art of hand planing, which has been discussed for hundreds of years I'm..... ;~)
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