Sawstop--the wrong marketing approach?

Page 3 of 13  
In typed:

LOLOLOL...thanks for bringing a little humor into this debate.
--
Ted Harris
http://www.tedharris.com
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
In typed:

Please understand that I am not involved at all in the political side of this argument. I personally could care less whether or not the government makes it required or not...all I know is, I will have this system on any machinery in my shop that it can be put on, when it becomes available.
--
Ted Harris
http://www.tedharris.com
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
ted harris wrote:

That's your choice.
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 19:13:26 -0800, "ted harris"

And that says a lot about your confidence in your abilities and your personal cost/benefit ratios - but it really means nothing to some of us. I've been running power equipment for 30 years or so - since I was really too young to be doing it. I have developed a great deal of respect for the tools and make every effort to work in a way that allows me to stay clear of the sharp parts. I will probably not purchase a saw with this kind of device because the cost of even a minor contact is currently high enough to put me out of the shop for weeks or months until I could afford the new cartridge and blade. As I have said elsewhere, I suspect that the vast majority of table saw injuries don't involve amputation or even a trip to the emergency room. I have witnessed two TS accidents, both direct result of careless behavior around the saw, both were pretty good cuts, but neither even required stitches, simply a good bandage. One friend of mine did cut his thumb, index finger and half the next one off. That was one of those accidents that involved running the saw when tired and in a hurry. He probably would have appreciated SawStop at that moment!
Point is that I will apply a lot of personal controls to reduce the risk of a major injury rather than pay the premium on a system that can turn a 2 cent bandage injury into a $150 repair bill on the saw.
It's a calculated risk - but it *is* a *calculated* risk.
Tim Douglass
http://www.DouglassClan.com
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
In wrote:

Everyone else in this conversation has chosen not to make this a personal issue about each others woodworking skills, except you... My confidence level is just fine, thank you. Woodworking is what I do for a living. To my knowledge, there is no one else here that does what I do. There are less than 200 people in the world that chose my profession. I have never cut myself on a saw, or any machine while utilizing a rotational cutting blade...I have been doing it for 13 years as a living...and I mean full time...prolly average 60 or more hours a week...but that does not mean that accidents can't happen. We are, only human after all.

A two cent bandage injury is what you get when you have sawstop.
P.S. Just my two cents...
--
Ted Harris
http://www.tedharris.com
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 00:52:14 -0800, "ted harris"

So they claim, anyway. In fact some of the people who have actually looked closely at the product have some serious doubts. Look at the CPSC filings and pay particular attention to the reports of the technical experts SawStop attached to its petition.
Why does this whole argument remind me in a nasty way of the debate over airbags?
--RC

Projects expand to fill the clamps available -- plus 20 percent
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 00:52:14 -0800, "ted harris"

I said nothing about your woodworking skills, thank you. I didn't express my thought well, but what I said was that based on what you perceive the risks and benefits of SawStop to be, you consider it a worthwhile purchase.

Again, I'm not making a point about skill levels, merely trying to establish that I have sufficient experience running a table saw to have reason to trust my techniques and safety practices. As a professional you probably run a TS as much in a day as I do in a month, maybe even more than that. Consider how that affects your perception of SawStop. If I were running a shop I might consider it as well - although only after it had established a solid track record in the market - I just don't care for being an unpaid beta tester.

I think you still miss my point. SawStop can turn a major injury into an insignificant one, but it can also turn a minor injury into a major expense. Minor injuries are, I suspect (but can't prove), much more common than major ones, therefore SS will normally be a net financial cost to the owner rather than saving thousands in e-room costs etc. The issue of pain and trauma is left up to the personal opinions of the operators.
Tim Douglass
http://www.DouglassClan.com
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

You might want to wait until they come out with 'Hand Stop'; stops your hands from going near anything sharp or pointy.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
typed:

I'd be interested in more detail behind the 3,000 amputations. Perhaps if you could provide information about the degree of amputation, etc. I realize it's a statistic, but it's also being bannered about here as if it has some meaning. As it stands today, the phrase 3,000 amputation has no meaning whatsoever and in fact has nothing more than shock value. That's one of the things I like least about what I see Gass doing. Those who have to resort to that type of tactic only do so because something else isn't up to par in their claim.
--

-Mike-
snipped-for-privacy@sprintmail.com
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

You are confusing correlation with causation. The wings don't make the drivers idiots, but the idiot drivers are more likely to buy wings.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

Can someone here help me spell facetious?
-j
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

I thought you might have been, but it's _so_ hard to tell on Usenet. There are people who apparently think that way, and eventually they always find out about "tha intarweb thing".
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
: : I keep reading that from people, but how many times have you heard anyone : say that they drive more recklessly because they have an airbag in their : car? Or even really had reason to believe they do? It isn't human nature : to behave that way.
I've seen too many examples of people becoming complacent with their 'equipment' to buy your argument. Perhaps most people won't drive more recklessly with an airbag but many do with four wheel drive and/or anti-lock brakes. There will always be a portion of the public that puts too much faith in safety equipment... I like to think of it as population control.
-Brian
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Right. The stupid people who aren't wearing seatbelts now "because I has airbags, yuh see", are the same stupid people who weren't wearing seatbelts before airbags came along.
Technology doesn't make stupid people more, or less, stupid. It just changes what they're going to be stupid about.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Unfortunately the publicity campaign for air bags has given some people the idea that air bags are a substitute for seat belts. This is massively untrue, but a lot of people believe it.

True, but PR campaigns that misinform can make even fairly bright people act in truly stupid ways.
--RC
Projects expand to fill the clamps available -- plus 20 percent
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
snipped-for-privacy@TAKEOUTmindspring.com wrote:

Dude, are you, like, a civil litigator?
JP
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
wrote:

No, just an experienced observer.
I was a newspaper and wire service reporter an editor for many years, including the period when seat belts were first mandated.
Bismarck's old adage about sausage and politics goes double for public policy.
--RC
Projects expand to fill the clamps available -- plus 20 percent
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Thu, 16 Dec 2004 04:03:18 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@TAKEOUTmindspring.com

Can you point me to a single example of this?

Not hardly. If they make a stupid decision, it's them doing it. Them misunderstanding "Airbags, as a supplimental restraint system, will make you safer" doesn't mean they've been misled, it means they don't comprehend well. Dave Hinz
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Well, we can start with a 1983 quote from Joan Claybrook, former NHTSA adminstrator
Air bags, (she insisted on CNN in 1983), are ''much better than seat belts'' because they ''would protect all front-seat occupants in those types of crashes where 55 percent of the public is now killed.'' She called them ''the best solution,'' since ''they fit all different sizes and types of people, from little children up to ... very large males. So they really work beautifully and they work automatically and I think that that gives you more freedom and liberty.''
(I'll note additionally in passing that this contains several major untruths, whether Claybrook knew they were untrue or not. And as former NHTSA administrator she should have known they were untrue.)
Or this, from Public Citizen, one of the Naderite groups that spread the misinformation about air bags.
"Protection of Unbelted Occupants Original purpose of air bags"
That's from their 1999 fact sheet on air bags at http://www.citizen.org/autosafety/Air_Bags/articles.cfm?ID `07
And the effect? A lot of people were left with a very false impression about air bags.
"Survey of Americans Shows Use and Safety of Air Bags Misunderstood" Is the headline on a 1997 release from the Harvard School of Public Health.
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/press/releases/press03171997.html

If they're acting on widespread misinformation then their responsibility is at least lessened. People were widely misinformed about the effects of airbags because their advocates vastly overstated their case.

See the examples above. People were told, or as much as told, that air bags would protect you even if you weren't buckled in. They weren't told -- until years after air bags were mandated -- that air bags could also kill you and your children.
Your argument is valid in regards to air bags circa 2004 because of a massive education campaign in the last five years. (The first public mention of these dangers from a government source I could find was in a 1995 release.) Before then it was simply wrong -- because of the widespread misinformation.

Projects expand to fill the clamps available -- plus 20 percent
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 02:52:13 GMT, "Mike Marlow"

Don't know about airbags, but I know a whole boatload of people who drive more recklessly because they have 4WD. I have been passing them upside down in ditches for years. Ask any cop or tow truck operator and they will tell that more 4WDs end up off the road in the snow than anything else.
This may or may not be a relevant data point.
Tim Douglass
http://www.DouglassClan.com
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Related Threads

    HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.