Sawstop--the wrong marketing approach?

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On 16 Dec 2004 10:15:37 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.comnotforme (Charlie Self) wrote:

Hell, old man, a "lot of us" are DEAD by 66, haven't ya noticed ? :-)

Welll, that's part of the problem. Some of us aren't quite as ambidextrous as some others. Some of us even have problems walking and chewing gum at the same time. You could argue that those of us so unendowed should stay away from power tools altogether, but some of us do like a bit of spice & danger in our lives. Just not too much....

In the air, or on the ground ? (I just want to know whether I'll have to buy wheels for the damn thing in another few years).
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GregP asks:

Arnie Swarzenego is the only one who can do the air thing with 500 pounds. Did you read his comment about being the only one who could lift the CA governor's conferance table? Where's Jesse Ventura now that he's needed?
Charlie Self "He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire." Sir Winston Churchill
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On 16 Dec 2004 16:31:32 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.comnotforme (Charlie Self) wrote:

Guess I should run for governor, eh ?
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wrote:

You will also have far more experience, even more ingrained safety habits and have developed patterns of working to compensate for your physical and mental failings.
Older age groups famously have fewer accidents than younger ones.
--RC
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As someone mentioned it might be a hard sell for the hobbiest. But think about the pro shop getting an insurance discount for an "Sawstop" shop. There might be an economic incentive to migrate the tools.
Allen Catonsville, MD
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Allen Epps wrote:

If Delta put the Sawstop on the Unisaw at no change in price, would the presence of the Sawstop dissuade you from buying it?

--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
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On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 21:06:06 -0500, "J. Clarke"

Delta also puts a splitter on that saw and that didn't stop me from buying it either. Of course I haven't seen the splitter since the day I bought the saw. To answer your question, no. I'm pretty sure though that Sawstop has some interest in being paid or they would have sent us all one by now. Most of us could come up with an overpriced product that nobody wants. Not many of us could sell it and so far, neither can Sawstop.
Mike
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Mike wrote:

The suggestion I was making was that it be approached on a razor blade model-include it in the saw at no additional charge and make your profit on the consumables.

--
--John
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On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 21:06:06 -0500, "J. Clarke"

At this point, probably. I try not to buy beta or .0 releases. If SS has a good track record after being in the workplace for 5 years in significant numbers then I'd be willing.
Tim Douglass
http://www.DouglassClan.com
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Obviously from this discussion not everyone would buy it, but I certainly would as long as it wan't cost prohibitive. A year and a half ago I cut the tip of a finger off on my PM66. I really wish I had been working on a sawstop equipped saw. Sawstop isn't a hard sell to me at all. $100/cartridge + a new blade? So what? Want to know how much cutting my fingertip off cost? About $6000. Mosly covered by insurance, but cost to me was still more than the $200 it would have cost to get back on track after a sawstop trigger. In other words I would be _very_ happy to shell out $200 every time I would have cut my fingers off but didn't because the brake triggered. Clearly the general strategy would be to never get into a situation in which you triggered the thing at all, but as I have learned sometimes accidents happen.
I think the reason saw manufacturers don't want to use it is probably one of two things:
1) the manufacturers are really lazy 2) the terms being offered to them to license the technology are too expensive
Lazy? My theory is that the manufacurers are loathe to redesign their products and retool their production facilities, because that is way more trouble than just continuing to pump out what they already make. The reason the PM 66 is called the 66 is because it hasn't been substantially changed in design for the last 38 freaking years. Comparing my '72 PM66 and my friend's new one, the few minor changes I noticed were obviously to slightly cut production cost, not to improve the design. It would be pretty straightforward to redesign the arbor casting and cradle to accomodate at the least a riving knife. But they haven't even bothered to do that, much less the more serious modifications that would be required to design in sawstop.
Terms too steep? Some saws/brands have higher margins than others, but generally I bet the manufacturers are not making a huge profit on such a commodity product. Adding cost to the production would mean either cutting their margins or charging way more by the time distribution and retail markups are included.
I think of this technology exactly like airbags in cars. It adds some cost. Some people don't think the cost is worth it. You can certainly buy cars without airbags. But I am willing to pay a little extra for that additional protection. Hopefully you never even have the opportunity to get your money's worth out of the system, but it is there in case you need it. (I actually don't have a car though, so we'll see in the future I guess).
The other comment I had re: the number of table saw injuries. Most table saw injuries are related to kickback, which sawstop woudn't help with in most cases. However, the second place injury is lacerations, which along with kickback related incidents where the kickback drags people's hands into the blade would be helped by sawstop.
-Holly
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The most insightful posting in the thread! Thanks Holly.
snipped-for-privacy@eink.com wrote:

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On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 19:07:05 -0500, Allen Epps

That may well be true.
Much is being read into the fact that Sawstop has not shipped any machines yet. There are some pretty straightforward issues here, tho, that have nothing to do with the safety gizmo and all to do with it being a brand new company in this business. I wonder how long it took Grizzly to release its first product from the day it formed itself ? That's one aspect. Another is the fear by potential customers that they will end up with an orphan saw: how many of us would buy the first product from a brand-new company that, like all brand-new companies, has a high probability of failure ? And in addition to its stupid attempt to assure success by regulation, though one that has a long tradition in the US, it will also be hurt by the knee-jerk reaction to a product whose primary "selling point" is an attempt to reduce injury. I don't think that the name helps it much either: are they selling a saw or an add-on ? The implication of the name is that the saw itself is secondary and perhaps did not receive the attention that the device did. But still, I hope they succeed, and if they're around for a few years I will most likely buy one.
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wrote:

Do you think it was six years before they shipped anything? Hardly.
-j
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J responds:

Probably more like a month, or the time it took to get tools here after they'd already been contracted in Taiwan. The owner of Grizzly knew exactly what he's doing, as he has known pretty much every step of the way since he started back in '83. Get the product to the customer as fast as possible, at the lowest possible cost consistent with reasonable quality, and improve the product as fast as is possible without blowing costs out of sight.
Charlie Self "He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire." Sir Winston Churchill
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Yep, my point exactly. You can take orders in advance, but you better be ready to ship within a few months or you are going to end up with unhappy ex-customers.
-j
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On 16 Dec 2004 20:29:05 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.comnotforme (Charlie Self) wrote:

I have no idea how long it took from the day a few people said "hey, let's sell tools" to the day that the first one was sold to a customer, but I suspect that it was a good two years. I also have no idea when the Sawstop people decided to go into the ts retail business.

That is now, but that is different from what I asked.
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GregP responds:

What did you ask?
SawStop has been sitting on their product for at least four years that I know of...make that five. I somehow doubt the owner of Grizzly spent anything like two years putting things together to sell tools, but if he did, he made no public announcements beforehand about his products.
I've met Mr. Balolia (sp?) a couple times, and one thing I learned about him is that he does not like wasting time. AFAIK, he's sole owner of Grizzly, so he would have made the decisions and got things going ASAP, after deciding he was going to sell imported tools in the U.S. It might have taken him two years to put the financing together...I have absolutely NO idea about that.
Charlie Self "He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire." Sir Winston Churchill
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On 17 Dec 2004 01:52:56 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.comnotforme (Charlie Self) wrote:

My starting point was when he decided to sell tools, not when he decided to add a single product to his line.

So it sounds like two years, maybe even longer, is realistic.
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GregP responds:

Maybe. But it's conjecture, not reality, and does not face the fact that he didn't publicly announce his products before he could supply them.
Charlie Self "He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire." Sir Winston Churchill
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wrote:

If you really want to know the answer check out the SawStop patent and look at the filing date. Then count backwards anywhere from six months to two years.
If you want a more reasonable number, look at when the company was incorporated. If it's been several years and they're still not shipping, then there's a problem.
Don't discount the possibility that this is another example of a small company built around a good story whose primary business is to get money from investors. There are a lot of those out there.
--RC
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