Sawstop on slashdot

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In college 33 years ago. If you think that I am the only case you are sadily mistaken.

Apparently and you still don't seem to get it.

Changing you mind again? Having insurance sure sounds like you are afraid of what migh thappen to me.

Well then you should not have a problem with a better safety device if it becomes mandated since the guard that came on your saw was later added as standard like a better device may become standard.

You seem to know left and right pretty well do you understand in between?

Let me quote you here, I refuse to allow the government to tell me what kind of table saw I can buy - there are much more dangerous things they do little about - cancer caused by tobacco
I read that as you think the government is not doing enough about cancer caused by tobacco. What more do you want them to do? Why can't I express my openion about the SawStop while you tbelieve that the government should be doing more to cure cancer.
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You cited excactly one case - yours. . .

Huh?
afraid
Huh? Time for a reality check here - I never changed my mind - you seem incapable of understanding plain English.
Insurance is for risk mitigation not elimination -
If the government mandated that all makers use Sawstops then the company would suddenly become very rich since it holds the sole patent for such devices. Their royalty pricing is onerous to say the least. Low end saws would disappear and prices for all saws would rise by LARGE amounts. As a result a few fingers might be saved. . . Well yes sign me up since I love to pay for the stuipidity of others. . . I think not. . .

tell
needed
of
one.
Sorry your logic is failing again - the guard I removed on my saw probably cost about $10-15 and did not impact the overall price very much unlike what mandating the SS would do.

not
even
of
Yes I do but it is obivious that you do not. . .

traffic
express
Sigh - you are living proof of why some people should not be allowed near power tools. What I said was "why should the government worry about a few missing digits when people are dying from their inaction in other areas."
You are free to express your opinion about how wonderful SawStop is - I am not trying to stop you. I have not trashed the product. From what I have read it seems to work but I do question their onerous royalty pricing structure.
A government mandate to install them on all saws would not work from a practical or economical point and your continued instance that they should is illogical and incorrect.
BB
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So let's get down to business: Have you shelled out the bucks for SawStop? No? Why not? You want to mandate something for everyone else which you haven't adopted yourself?
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Just as easy to ask, Have you shelled out the bucks for a SawStop? You do not want every one to benefit from something because you have not tested it your self?
I am entitled to my opinion as are you.
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On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 17:08:15 GMT, "Leon"

SNIPPO
People on this group tend to discuss the sawstop safety feature with larger, expensive tablesaws in mind. However, if mandated, the sawstop device would be required on all saws, from the $99 benchtop to the $100,000 GEEWHIZBANG Commercial model. Now I don't care how many are made, the cost of the sawstop will never get below a lowend tablesaw cost and the structure required to simply put this type of feature on a saw is way beyond the structure of a benchtop saw. Therefore any such requirement simply eliminates the whole lowend market, which in reality is probably a major part if mot the majority of the market in terms of units sold. I dare say that if air bags and seatbelts doubled or tripled the cost of the average car and virtually eliminated the ability to make and sell anything smaller or less costly than higher end 4 door sedans, there is no way they would have become required equipment on cars, regardless of their life saving potential.
BTW I cannot concieve of any way that you could redesign my saw, a Shopsmith, to accept such a device and Shopsmith (already a very niche market company with financial issues) would simply go out of business. Dayton Ohio would lose jobs.
Dave Hall
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wrote:

1973 The 4 function electronic calculator came to market from TI. Retail price, $129.00 1975 The electronic calculator with memory and square root functions could be bought for $14.95

If Shopsmith is already in financial trouble then the writing is on the wall. The threat of the SawStop technology is not at fault.
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On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 14:02:29 GMT, "Leon"

I'm sorry, but WTF does this have to do with the discussion? The calculator is an elctronic device almost in its entirety and the cost came down because of the ability to produce semiconductor chips at etrememly low cost per unit. If memory serves, TI didn't have a monopoly or charge a significant royalty either. They certainly did not attempt to have anyone in government say you were no longer allowed to buy adding machines or comptrometers. In any case, the sawstop device is mostly mechanical with a little electronic sensing technology thrown in. There will certainly be some economies of scale and from improvements in design and manufacturing, but nothing that is even in the realm of electronics industry from the 1970s to present.The costs of the electronics has already benefited from the radical decline in semiconductor costs, but the springs, aluminum blocks, and heavy steel components of the sawstop device will not presumably see such cost reductions. Nor, I presume, will the costs of the blades and other consumable aspects of the unit. With even a cheap blade and assuming some fairly high unit cost reduction due to higher production volumes on the aluminum blocks, triggering the system will likely cost at least half as much as the saw.

I think I said "financial issues" not "in financial trouble". They have had financial issues for the last 15 to 20 years with few profitable years in that time and they have shrunk (try to find a Shopsmith retail store - they don't exist anymore except for the factory store in Dayton). However, they have stayed in business and have provided jobs in Dayton (and a few traveling sales/demonstration people) for all of those years. I am sure that those employees will be happy that you wrote off their livelyhood so cavalierly.
My bottom line point was that there are many considerations before mandating costly safety requirements and you can't simply consider the commercial or high end part of the market. Again, if automobile safety devices such as seatbelts and airbags had eliminated large segments of the market they would not have been required. I am not against resonable safety requirements. I don't support eliminating guards, (or seat belts for that matter) but it can go too far and in my opinion mandating sawstop technology is really going too far. Safety advocates that get silly with their rules and requirements can easily screw up real safety programs by making safety so onerous and silly that nobody complies and once non-complince becomes routine, even rational and effective safety considerations get ignored.
Dave Hall
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wrote:

You said, Now I don't care how many are made, the cost of the sawstop will never get below a lowend tablesaw cost and the structure required to simply put this type of feature on a saw is way beyond the structure of a benchtop saw.
The same can happen with the SawStop device. Who would have dreamed there would be $100 table saws these days? Comnpetition does wonders for pricing.
SNIP

You say tomato I say tomatto. You do not down size because you finances are doing well. I'd say that Shopsmith is in trouble unless they start selling more. You have to change with the times or be left behind.
I am not against

I respect you opinion even if it differs from mine.
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On Tue, 15 Aug 2006 14:09:33 GMT, "Leon"

While I appreciate his concern, I have a bit of concern myself when I think about one of my $100 blades being welded into an aluminum block. Granted, it's cheaper than reattaching a finger, but if it has a misfire even once a year, the cost of that saw is way too high in the long run. I've been doing construction for a little under a decade, and I could count the number of guys I've met with missing fingers on one hand- and that would still be true even if I had cut a few of those fingers off... which I haven't. Grandpa lost a few fingers, but that was in a press at a tire factory. My dad lost a foot, but that was on a hay elevator on a farm. Never met a guy who lost a body part woodworking, though there are plenty of scars around, usually from chisels, pealed fingers (from hitting them with a waffle headed hammer) and nails sticking out of boards. Saws of any type are more likely to cut their own cords off than take off your fingers, if observation is worth anything.
Given that obsevation, I still feel just fine using my tools even without a blade stopper. I'd prefer to see good riving knives as standard equipment on table saws, rather than the crappy lexan shields that never want to stay aligned properly.
All that being said, I did cut one of my fingers pretty severely with a saw once... but it was a handsaw, and I was pruning a bush. Too bad there wasn't a saw stop that time. :)
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: http://slashdot.org/articles/06/08/14/1241211.shtml
Also http://www.designnews.com/CA6360672.html
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