Sawstop cabnet saw nearing reality

[Lawrence Wasserman]

Telling something to dead people is about as effective as telling something to people on a newsgroup.

[JLucas ILS]

Ed, You do not need a fence if all you are sawing are hot dogs.

Two years+ is a long time to wait if you need or want a new saw. I looked at their web page. Price of the saw seems OK, but they I noticed, the fence is optional. Gets pricey all of a sudden. I'd like to see it in production a reasonable cost for those that want to buy them, not be forced into it. Ed

[Bob Schmall]

And what was it you wished to tell us, Larry?

[Bay Area Dave]

I knew the absurdity of my statement, Larry. I ALSO know the uselessness of most newsgroups. They are akin to train wrecks; it's hard to stop staring...

dave

[Upscale]

That's not why air bags aren't deployed in race cars. They're not used because of a combination of three factors. Those factors consist of cost to develop, engineering difficulty and that fact that race car driving is supposed to be dangerous. That's what draws the crowds. Nobody would attend a 5 mph race with everybody driving bumper car protection. Too many safeguards and people would quickly lose interest in the racing scene. Race car drivers' images would suffer and that's a "no, no" for any professional sportsman.

For a number of years, professional hockey goalies didn't wear masks, solely because they felt it would effect their macho, tough guy image on the ice. It stayed that way until one person made the change, then the others followed.

It's entirely possible to construct an air bag than can offer a measure of protection in a serious crash and yet still withstand all the rubbing those race car endure without going off. It's just difficult and costly.

[Mike Marlow]

I suppose that's why they use a 5-point harness system that is infinitely more effective than a standard passenger car seat belt. I don't know where you came up with your theory, but aside from the cost to develop/deploy, the rest of your point sounds like pure hogwash.

I would suggest that the real reason they don't use airbags is that they don't need them. The driver is already restrained in the car by the harness system, and when it's properly installed, coupled with head and neck restraint systems found in all forms of racing today, it's extremely effective.

[Upscale]

Ok Mike. Reconcile that with my example of goalies not using face masks all those years. What would be your explanation for that? Catharsis is alive and well in race car driving as much as any other sport. There's any number of improvements that could assist race car drivers, but it doesn't fit the image of this dangerous sport.

[Mike Marlow]

Well, I think I can reconcile it - but I'm not sure that upholds your point. Whether it can or cannot be reconciled does not prove or disprove either of our points. These are different sports, and a face mask does not equate to an airbag - perhaps to a helmet, but not to an airbag. However... to address the point of change taking a while and then being embraced upon some pivotal event, that has already occurred within racing. Witness the advent and overall acceptance of the head and neck restraint systems. Witness the almost complete acceptance of the closed face helmet over the open face helmet. Witness strict adherence to manufacturer's spec on safety harness installation. You obviously don't follow motor sports in order for you to make the assertion that safety does not fit the image of this dangerous sport. You'd be well served by doing a quick google search on safety improvements over the past 5 years in stock car racing alone. Your assertion that image prevails will fall under its own weight.

[Upscale]

installation. You obviously don't follow motor sports in order for you to

So, you're telling me that danger in the sport has no consideration? That's a crock and you know it. I never said that safety doesn't fit motor sports, what I said essentially is that there's a slowly changing limit to which safety is incorporated in it, otherwise the sport loses it's thrill to a great many people. Would you go to races where there was absolutely no chance of injury or death? Many wouldn't.

Your assertion that air bags are impractical in race car driving is solely based on the fact that it hasn't been done yet. Not a very reliable viewpoint to base your argument on.

[J. Clarke]

Uh, the folks who control organized automobile racing are _very_ safety conscious. That's why the Mille Miglia is no longer run, it's why the Monza oval with the famed Wall is no longer used, it's why many tracks have had multiple chicanes added, it's why nearly if not all organizations require self-sealing fuel cells, and on and on.

[J. Clarke]

Uh, what racing class do these goalies run in and what is the sanctioning body?

That the people who run organized hockey aren't as safety conscious as the ones who run organized racing?

Such as?

With all the safety features in the world people will still manage to die on the racetrack.

[bridger]

nope.

race car seat belts are the most expensive, best engineered sealtbelts around, and all of the extra weight of those roll cages can't be helping their lap times any. considering that some of those cars cost upwards of a million bux, the cost of air bags, even custom made ones, is nothing. hell, part of the machismo of race cars is the "mine cost more than yours did" bit.

[Charlie Self]

Sorry, but I've watched a couple NASCAR races, and the bumping and banging would set off almost any airbag sensor you can dream up. An airbag in the face at 190+ MPH has to be a cause of immediate loss of control, which is going to be a real fun occasion when that driver is in the middle of a pack of cars.

Not a workable safety solution, it seems to me.

Charlie Self "It is even harder for the average ape to believe that he has descended from man." H. L. Mencken

[Upscale]

Of course you wouldn't want one going off just because of a little rubbing. Instead of a vibration control, it could just as easily be a switch that goes off when a certain crush factor is reached. You're thinking of them in regards to their operation in regular vehicles. A race car isn't a regular vehicle, so it would need a different type of switch to set one off.

I agree that in the current racing climate, they're quite likely impractical, but unless someone comes forward who has actually researched such a device for racing purposes and can say different, don't tell me it can't be done. Man as invented many devices much more difficult than a working air bag for a race car.

[Charlie Self]

Upscale responds:

I didn't say it can't be done. I did say it was impractical. There is a difference.

You write of them being impractical in the "current racing climate", but I don't see much different from this racing climate than the one that obtained when King Richard's dad was getting his start back in the '50s. Bumping and banging is part of the game. I figure you'd have to work out a sensor that would set the bag off only with a head-on impact with something other than the rear of another car, say a side panel, or a wall. And, again, there is a loss of control implicit in such a bag going off, with most drivers swearing that having at least minimal control makes them able to avoid even worse consequences during crashes. And they may well be right.

Charlie Self "It is even harder for the average ape to believe that he has descended from man." H. L. Mencken

[George]

Why would anyone put a passive restraint system in place where the much more effective active type is mandatory?

Not to mention that the deployment time on the bag would either be too slow to fully restrain at NASCAR speeds, or so fast that it would damage what it was supposed to protect.

[Upscale]

Well, with a viewpoint like that, then why not mandate five point harnesses in all cars and to hell with air bags anywhere?

For the greatest part, most of you have a pretty closed minds. Just because something hasn't been done before, you think it's inappropriate. I haven't seen a true racing engineer step forward to correct my thinking or comment on any part of this conversation so as far as I'm concerned, most of you are armchair quarterbacks with inexperienced opinions.

[Charlie Self]

Upscale responds:

Sub-100 MPH speeds?

Charlie Self "It is even harder for the average ape to believe that he has descended from man." H. L. Mencken

[Doug Miller]

"A little rubbing"?????????

With this sentence, two things become crystal clear:

1) You have never watched a NASCAR race. Ever. Not in person, not on TV. 2) You are not paying any attention to the people who *have*.

Here's your sign.

-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

[Mike Marlow]

I seen you before - you're all over the internet and you're all over where people are discussing things. You're the guy that takes a statement made by a person and twists it so that you can force your own conclusion. Sorry, but I never said danger was of no consideration in the sport. I simply replied to your broad sweeping assertion that airbags would not be placed in race cars because of the macho, danger image that is so important to the racing industry. I challenged that assertion, demonstrated the outright lunacy of that statement and challenged your very knowledge of the sport you feel so free to speak about. You need to go back and read the thread again. Don't bother me again until you can employ intellectual honesty in a discussion. Those who argue like you argue simply for the sake of the argument and I don't have any interest in that.

No - read what I wrote again - airbags would bring nothing to the sport. Kindly explain what purpose they would serve that is not already served by the 5 point harness. An airbag is a restraint device. What more restraint is needed in a race car? Now, if you had asserted that they provide a better degree of g-force management than a 5 point harness, I would agree to a point, but you didn't. There - I made your argument for you. The counter point to that however would be that other technologies such as crumple zones and controlled releases of energy are likely to be better alternatives than the airbag. I'm not saying airbags will never appear in race cars, but I am saying that right now they offer nothing that existing technologies do already. No benefit, no point in making the investment.