Sawstop cabnet saw nearing reality

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FWW had a short write up about the first pre-production sawstop cabnet saw.
More pictures at www.sawstop.com. I didn't like thier efforts to force the technolgy on all saws, but applaud them building a better mousetrap.
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http://pages.cthome.net/edhome
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Ed Pawlowski writes:

IIRC, they were taking orders, with pre-production saw models sitting on the floor, at IWWF in '02. That's well over a year ago, and I'm not sure why anyone would write those saws up as "new" pre-production models.
Charlie Self "If you want to know what God thinks of money, just look at the people he gave it to." Dorothy Parker
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Two years+ is a long time to wait if you need or want a new saw. I looked at their web page. Price of the saw seems OK, but they I noticed, the fence is optional. Gets pricey all of a sudden. I'd like to see it in production a reasonable cost for those that want to buy them, not be forced into it. Ed
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Ed Pawlowski notes:

Yeah. Me, too, but their attempt at forcing it down people's throats really turned me off. When you discover the number/percentage of digit removal accidents on a table saw and compare such costs with the overall cost of the SawStop, you have to wonder a bit. Yes, it's a tragedy to the guy who loses a finger or 2. But why should it cost me, and 10,000,000 other table saw owners, $700 or so each to keep a dozen such people from losing a digit annually.
That forced marketing is probably impossible, anyway, but it would sure stir up immediate interest in the used table saw markets. Something like 20 years ago, Black & Decker estimated that there were at least 10,000,000 table saws in the U.S. which is where I got the above figure as well. At that time, the hobby was a minor one, relatively speaking. Today, whoooweee!
The biggest problem seems to actually be fear of loss, not actual loss, of a digit. I'd like to see some accurate, and certified, figures on table saw ownership versus amputation, or partial amputation, injuries, which seem to be all the SawStop is aimed at preventing. But I still wouldn't want legislation telling me that the next time I got a table saw, I'd have to double its price to pay for safety equipment I won't buy on my own.
Charlie Self "If you want to know what God thinks of money, just look at the people he gave it to." Dorothy Parker
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This saw technology is being developed for the long term. Should this technology succeed, it will become a required feature on all saws of every application.
Examples of this type of marketing abound. Seat belts, airbags, anit-lock brakes, life jackets, emergency locator beacons, anti kickback, guards of every size and shape.
Trust me when I say, as soon as the technology makes it past the commercial world where OSHA and the insurance companies force it on all machines operated by employees, it won't be long before its on every saw.
Dave

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TeamCasa writes:

I can just see dropping a bandsaw blade below the table instantaneously.

You're writing of life and death or major injury situations there, applying to many thousands of deaths or injuries. That simply is not the case with amputation and partial amputation injuries.

When will it "make it past the commercial world" when it can be forced on every saw? It may be required on commercial saws, but damned few tablesaws sold are commercial use models, in comparison to the overall market.
Charlie Self "If you want to know what God thinks of money, just look at the people he gave it to." Dorothy Parker
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But wouldn't most folks already own a suitable fence?
If you have to have it to be insured in the future, you can bet it'll be at a minimum license fee, like the air bags.

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Good point. The fence from my Craftsman saw with 22" table could probably be made to fit. When I bought my new saw I went and bought a new fence with it. How dumb was that? Ed
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Ed, Ed, Ed. You must have money growing on trees going out and splurging for a new fence when you had a perfectly good Craftsman fence available. Seriously, I have what I believe is a decent fence in the Delta Unifence, but if I sold my saw and bought a new one, I would expect that the fence would go with it. I don't have a lot of data to go on here. I've only bought one table saw up to now and the fence came attached.
todd
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Charlie, Unfortunately {or fortunately - if you believe in Darwinism}, the ONE piece of absolutely vital Safety Equipment can't be either bought or legislated.
The one between your ears.
Regards & Good Luck, Ron Magen Backyard Boatshop {as I mentioned to JT . . . still have all my fingers & toes, my OEM teeth & eyes, and enough hair to be a 'donor' }
SNIP But I still wouldn't want legislation telling me that the next time I got a table saw, I'd have to double its price to pay for safety equipment I won't buy on my own.

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Ron Magen responds:

True enough. A quick OSHA check shows that in 1999 there were 3 reported incidences of table saw accidents, 2 with amputations and 1 with partial. The following year saw 1 injury reported, no amputations. The reports all indicate a degree of Darwinism in action, and, of course, don't show a full spectrum of amateur and pro workers, but do give an indication of the scarcity of the type of wounds the SawStop is designed to prevent.
There just are no overall figures, at least that I can locate, that show what kindo of real value this device might have. And reading recently of false indications causing the SawStop to activate makes me even more leery of its forced use. Those may or may not be true. There really needs to be some industry study in this area.
Charlie Self "If you want to know what God thinks of money, just look at the people he gave it to." Dorothy Parker
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Ed, You do not need a fence if all you are sawing are hot dogs.
Two years+ is a long time to wait if you need or want a new saw. I looked at their web page. Price of the saw seems OK, but they I noticed, the fence is optional. Gets pricey all of a sudden. I'd like to see it in production a reasonable cost for those that want to buy them, not be forced into it. Ed

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Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

With the price of the SawStop Microsoft will probably three of four other releases out before anyone orders one.
-- Jack Novak Buffalo, NY - USA (Remove "SPAM" from email address to reply)
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On 21 Jun 2004 07:45:36 -0700, brian_j snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com (brian roth) vaguely proposed a theory ......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

There was some simplistic prat who said "If you invent a better mousetrap, the world will beat a path to your door." They forgot to include economics.
IIRc the Saw Stop was a significant part of the cost of a saw. pphhptht!
IME, WRT the sawstop, as with all "bright ideas" if they (a) take the long sales view (b) really care about safety
and rather than trying to enforce their market, they then price the thing to _sell easily_, (rather than pay for development costs in 6 months), then there is no _need_ for the "enforced view".
Reality. X percent of the saw-using community suffer loss of a weener sausage during their career or hobby life. Cost your mousetrap at much more than this, and Govt intervention (insurance lobby groups) is your only hope.
There are those that _succeed_ in their lobbies. There are those that fail.
It's a BIG bet. Fail and you will NOT sell. "Ferget you, man!"
If I was going to lobby for mandatory whatever, I would say "What votes
!!!!!!!!!_use_!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
this thing?"..............table saws? umm......... .....2%
....Looooser!
Market forces apply. Get the price down.
Airbags? 80+% _use_ the thing it "helps". Winner! Bullshit _or_ not.
"Short people" it kills? 1%.......see stat on weener savers.
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I think that they could do quite effectively by making a high quality saw that is worth the price, then pointing out that the saw could save money in the long run if health costs are considered.
I saw their site. I'm strongly considering getting one. It would be a move up from my Ryobi, but I'm getting to the point where the added size, accuracy, capabilities, and piece of mind are getting to be important.
Michael
(brian roth)

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Old Nick wrote:

Huh? I don't personally know _anybody_ who has _used_ an airbag. If "80%" actually USED them then I would expect to know _somebody_ who had.

1% of what? It kills 1% of short people? 1% of airbags kill short people? Something else?
--
--John
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If by used, you mean had one deploy in an accident, then my wife has used one and I know of at least 2 people where I work that had them deploy in an accident. I am not siding with the original author nor his figures just saying that I know of 3 people.
J. Clarke wrote:

--
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BRuce

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If there's one thing _not_ to use as a bad example of regulation, it's the airbag.
For folks who don't have sense enough to use belts, they're lifesavers. I've noticed a big reduction in head injuries in my little county from deployed bags. It's always a relief to survey the scene and not see that impact star in the windshield.
I have cut seven fatals from seatbelts in twenty years, four of which also had airbags deploy, but when the engine is in the passenger compartment, or the door intrudes past the center console, I don't think anything will work. Of ejected, two of probably 20 survived.
Oh yeah, hundreds who wore the belts were collared and boarded as precaution only.
<BRuce> wrote in message

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Not really. The airbag is designed for them to be in position. Airbags will only be in the right place if the patient is held in place by the seat belts - they work _with_ the belts, not _instead of_. They are going to do their little "partially or fully ejected" trick without belts, no matter if the airbags go off or not. If they're not where the airbag expects them to be, _that_ is when you'll see more airbag-assisted injuries - if your face is in the big pillow when it goes bang, it's gonna hurt. Still softer than the glass, but...

I don't think I've been to a scene with deployed bags and windshield "football sign", but I'm not sure if that's specifically because of the bags, or because of the people driving cars with, vs. without.

You do not want to be ejected. You _especially_ do not want to be partially ejected (translation: head sticking out when the car rolls on top of it).

Yup. If the car is smacked hard enough to deploy the airbags, it's pretty much trashed anyway - better to let the car's safety systems work together to help you out. What this has to do with, what, Roundup on weeds, well, who knows. But, people who say airbags aren't a valuable life-saving development must have limited exposure to crashes and the results of them.
Dave Hinz (ff/emt)
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