I kinda had the same situation. The saw had been turned off and I lost 1/2 my thumb. Accidents and lapse of judgment are can happen to anyone. I was one of those silly people that thought that after 12 years of serious woodworking that it could not happen to meeeee. Now after about 30 years I realize more and more the possibilities. And a guard would not have prevented my accident although I still do not use one. Guards so not cover ever scenario.
If he had hired Jack Abramhoff all new saws would be using it now.
If he'd hired Jack Abramhoff, all of the federal prison system wooddorking shops would have one now.
Regards,
Tom Watson
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
On Nov 26, 5:40 pm, "Leon" wrote: [schnipfered]
You get better results by flicking the lever to "single shot" from "automatic". Holds true when firing a machine gun. One shot on target, as opposed to 30 misses. What does that have to do with woodworking? If every action is treated like THAT one will be the one that will hurt you, then the utmost care in execution will be exercised. It's about never letting your guard down. It is about eye-contact, when coming close to a sawblade, or the asshole in the oncoming car who has his blinker out but doesn't make the turn...eye-contact stops accidents. I want to think about each movement. I do not want to become careless, because some (SawStop)machine/guard is supposed to protect me. I want to see the blade that can hurt me.
One accident that may have been prevented by the SawStop, will not change the odds for an accident elsewhere in the shop. In fact, I think that unit may build a false sense of safety which may be carried over to the shaper (really should have a power feeder), drill press and radial arm saw..or a jointer.. now there's nasty piece of gear. I DO want a guard on that. (You don't sew a part-finger back on after a jointer takes it off.)
r
Agreed. Unfortunately a guard can lead to the same false since of security. I too prefer to see the blade. Being alert is key but after a long day alertness can diminish.
Gotta Witness!
Absolutely Freakin' Amen, Robbie!
That was exactly my point in the previous threads about this weiner wacking wonder. (Did they test them on Nathan's Kosher All Beef?)
There is a damned fine book by David Pye called, The Nature And Art Of Workmanship, that delineates craftsman made products as being made under the rubric of The Workmanship Of Risk, and production made products as being made under that of, The Workmanship Of Certainty.
Pye was actually talking about the methods used in the small shop v. those used in production, and their result in the arena of design, but he may as well have been talking about the level of risk in one shop v. another.
The only employee that I ever had get hurt did it on the jointer.
I'm personally scared to death by the shaper and use any contrivance possible to keep my hands away from the cutterhead.
I can see SawStop being implemented through OSHA in production shops, once the bugs have been ironed out.
Right now, you are asking a shop owner to carry replacement cartridges for a unit that has not undergone adequate market testing, that costs a substantial percentage of the original cost of the saw.
Take the airbag, please.
If you have an event that requires the deployment of the airbag(s), the replacement cost is generally less than ten percent of the cost of the vehicle. The level of false positives is less than 0.05%. This is most often covered by insurance.
SawStop is more than double that, and market reports show that false positives are in an unacceptable range. I am not aware of any insurance program that covers the cost.
Maybe we should have freaking airbags on our saws that pop out of the blade guard and knock our fingers away. It won't fry the saw and you'll have a nice sack to store your oddments in.
Regards,
Tom Watson
tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
Well, that one sure got some action! And one guy has actually used one! I had no idea about the false stops, which could be an issue at $200 or so with a good blade. I'm gonna try to find one on display. Thanks, Wilson
You're unlikely to be able to get one in your shop for less than $3K+.
But I've said too much...
At times, you're entertaining. At other times, you make a complete ass of yourself.
Where are you guys finding "data" regarding false triggers ?? ?? ?? I've not been able to track down a single verified instance !! !! !!
BTW .. a replacement cartrige is $59.00 added to the cost of repair/replacement of whatever blade you were using when the device triggered. I triggered the device on two occasions where I worked .. both were demonstrations and intentional .. we were using a 40 tooth blade in the demo, and in each case, 3 teeth were embedded in the cartridge. 3-4 replaced teeth on a good blade should run less than $15 at most sharpening shops. Even if you are talking about replacing a Forrest blade .. I just ordered two from Amazon for $68.00 each. Now, let's take an imaginary trip to the Emergence Room and start adding up the $$$$$$$. FWIW .. in both instances, the blades were ATB grind, and you could easily tell from the damage that ONLY ONE TOOTH ever touched the hot dog.
I am also not aware of the "facts" surrounding the alleged attempt by the inventor to get the government to make his device a mandate. I've read several posts making some accusations of that, and feel that it is probably at least partially true. What I don't undersatnd is, what does a marketing blunder on his part have to do with keeping my fingers on my hands ?? I've read some posts declaring "I'd probably buy one IF he didn't try to blah, blah, blah" No matter WHAT HE DOES, I want to KEEP MY FINGERS.
YES .. $4,000 is a lot of money for a saw .. .. .. YES .. $100 or more to replace blade & cartridge sounds like a big investment .. .. .. YES .. the SAWSTOP is an excellent saw and a wonderfully designed saw even without the brake .. .. ..
oh yeah .. .. .. YES .. it WILL cost you in excess of $40,000 to have an amputated finger reattached, not to maention the paing, suffering, loss of work, loss of use of the appendage, etc.
The more you study the dynamics of a kickback and it's associated perils, the more sense the SAWSTOP makes. Used correctly, it will almost eliminate the possibility of a kickback, and the blade brake WILL protect you in the event you do something stupid and cause one anyway.
Do a Google Groups search -- at least one person has posted here, reporting a false trip of which he says he has first-hand knowledge.
[snip]It's *completely* true. Again, do a Google Groups search -- this was discussed in great detail here about two years ago. SawStop *did* in fact petition the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, requesting that their proprietary technology become mandated, and there was a post here that referenced the CPSC filing. This is not a wild unsubstantiated figment of someone's imagination. It's a fact.
[snip]
How does the SawStop prevent *kickback* ?? The whole point of the device is to prevent *amputations*.
Two words: Riving Knife
Now That item should be mandatory
The riving knife adresses kickback. Does hand/blade contact result from kickback?
than=A00.05%.=A0=A0This
You're confusing me, Tom. If you're saying that the cost of a replacem= ent cartridge and a sawblade are over 20% of the cost of the Sawstop, you'r= e wrong. Last time I looked, cartridges cost $60 and sawblades shouldn't= be over $140. That's $200 out of a saw/blade cost of $3600 or more. or ro= ughly
5.5% or less.If you're implying that the Sawstop costs over 20% of a comparable saw = without the safety features, that's open to interpretation. Because of the loa= d the safety feature puts on the saw, many of the components are much heavier= duty than on other saws. You can attribute that to the safety in which case=
you're right, or you can say you're getting much more saw than others, = in which case you're wrong.
BTW, if the offer hasn't ended, Sawstop will send you a new cartridge f= or free if you return the fired one -they're collecting data. That could end a= t any time, of course.
--=20 It's turtles, all the way down
Did a Google search .. still cannot find verification of a false-trigger .. .. never said it didn't/couldn't happen .. just that I can't track it down.
I did locate info. verifying that the owner did, in fact petition to have "Sawstop-like" technology mandated on new saws made in the U.S. .. .. BUT .. .. ONLY after having met with officials from other tool companies who resisted his technology ONLY in the interest of their own bottom-line. Face it .. if Powermatic/Delta/Grizzly adopted this technolgy, they would have one heck of a time selling off and supporting their old stock. THEY don't care about you or your fingers .. .. they care about corporate profits .. .. PLUS .. .. they are afraid of being sued at some point in time for not having adopted a known safety technology. According to my Google search, he was told by one major tool representative that IF his device ever came to market, THEY could easily go bankrupt. After going toe-to-toe with folks of that caliber, I really don't blame him for pulling out all the stops and trying his petition tactic. I don't really agree with that tactic but I do understand it.
Riving-knife .. .. and a well-designed one at that .. .. BUT .. .. you still have the option of removing it, hence my final comment about ALMOST making kickbacks impossible, but saving your fingers if you circumvent it.
I noticed you conveniently "snipped" all of the factual data that was of a positive note .. .. ..
They have been reported in this group by owners of the saw.
So, the brake device fires when it detects a possible kickback situation? That's news to me. Please explain how it does that and how it differentiates a normal cut from a possible kickback situation.
Besides its namesake feature, the whole saw is designed to increase safety compared to more traditional saws. Probably the main improvement is the riving knife (splitter) that rises and falls with the blade, allowing it to say in place for most any cut. I'm not enthused by the company's politics and think the sawstop brake thing is overhyped and overdesigned, but IMHO the riving knife that falls with the blade is a desireable feature for both safety and performance.
I'm no patent lawyer, and I don't know exactly what the sawstop patents cover, but I dont see how anyone could patent the broad idea of a safety device that stops a sawblade or any other type of moving machinery. There's just too much prior art. I suppose there is some merit in the sensor design part of the patent, but even so, I don't see that as being something unique, it could be done another way.
Did you ever try to select a floor in an elevator with the touch-style buttons by tapping them with a pencil?
In many instances, absolutely. If you're lucky, the blade will yank the piece of stock out of your hand and throw it at you .. .. if not, the blade will catch the piece of stock, lift it, and befin to rotate it as the teeth get a good bite. Depending on your hand position at this moment, you could come down on the blade with a finger/hand/or even a wrist.
WHERE did I ever make THAT statement ?? ?? ??
The riving knife prevents kickbacks .. the brake helps you stay intact IF you fail to use it. Sheesh !! !! !!
Uh, that's _his_ spin.
If they were afraid of that then they would have adopted it as soon as it became available.
And who is reporting this?
Oh, it's understandable but it's not forgiveable.
HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.