SawStop

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I mostly agree with you're take on the legislation of safety products except for one thing. It isn't only the victim that has to pay for their mistakes. It's society that pays for the medical cost of repairing your injury and pays for the long term rehabilitation that people need because they weren't smart enough to wear a seat belt, helmet or other safety device. You might claim that not using those devices often results in death and society won't pay much in that regard, but the reality is that more individuals end up loving and need radically expensive long term therapy that's a constant drain on the resources that our collective society provides.
As far as I'm concerned, it's human nature for people to attempt to get away with whatever they can and that instinct needs to be contained in some way. Show me a way to do that without legislation and I'll consider it. Until then, legislation is mostly the only way to stop much of our society from becoming a drain on itself.
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wrote:

fair enough.
you gotta balance that with corporate greed. sawstop has the patents for their product, which requires a saw built especially for it- it doesn't work as a retrofit. they tried to make their product mandatory by lobbying for new laws. this would have put all other table saw makers out of business in the US. this for a product that has no track record.
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Yeah, I'm aware of that and I fully agree with you. Safety is one thing, forcing it on people mainly to make a profit or succeed in business is a whole new ballgame.
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vaguely proposed a theory ......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email

To me there's a huge differnce between a helmet /seatbelt and a saw stop. A huge percentage of injuries to motorists are caused by somebody else. I would think that an overwhelming percent of saw accidents are caused purely by the operator.

***************************************************** Dogs are better than people.
People are better than dogs for only one purpose. And then it's only half of ofthe people. And _then_ most of them are only ordinary anyway. And then they have a headache.........
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That'd be *our* money, not their money.
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Dave Mundt notes:
snip of sensible responses

That's an absolute.

My big gripe is the use of the word "amputations" in place of injuries. I'd also know where they get their statistics. I sure haven't found them. Of course, I don't have a marketing impetus to actually spend money looking, but if I had cites to back up such claims, I think I'd make them available. So far, I've seen nothing but claims.
Most of us who have been fooling and fiddling with tablesaws over the years have received injuries of one sort or another, everything from blade-changing knicks to kickback bruises the size of a draft horse's shoe and, very occasionally, something more serious. If we're at all wise, we learn from the smaller incidents and remain slightly in awe of what the tablesaw can do to us if our attention wanders. If we're not particularly wise, we continue to use unsafe working methods and eventually get hurt worse. It may not catch up to the inattentive user today, tomorrow or even next year, but it will catch up.
Charlie Self "Health nuts are going to feel stupid someday, lying in hospitals dying of nothing." Redd Foxx
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.comnotforme (Charlie Self) wrote in message > >    While I don't want to be flippant about the injury rates

I am certainly not a big fan of this type of regulations. However, someone did provide a source citation for the number of amputations. That was the Federal Consumer Safety Protection Commission. See http://www.cpsc.gov/library/neiss.html
I also understand that there would be few affordable cars with airbags if they were not required and that deployment of an airbag adds quite a bit to smaller accident repair costs. On the other hand a $250 to $500 Sawstop will pretty much eliminate the $200 tablesaw and it is doubtful one could be put onto a cheap tabletop saw anyhow. How many fewer people are simply not going to be able to realistically participate in the hobby if something like this is mandated. I am not sure that, even though I consider myself a conservative, I am ready to eliminate all regulartory aspects of government - I just would want to err on the side of "freedom" in this area.
Dave Hall

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On 16 Nov 2004 11:38:15 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@nhsd.k2.pa.us (David Hall) wrote:

Kinda got to vote with David on this. To put a little finer (?) point on it, I see a place for regulatory interest in areas where the danger is insidious and/or non-apparent. I don't like the idea of government acting _in loco parentis_ or trying to protect me from myself in the presence of obvious danger.
Tom Veatch Wichita, KS USA
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I should read my own stuff before posting - that should have been the Federal Consumer Products Safety Commission
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As no one offered a little more explanation on how fast this saw-stop really stops, I would present some simple maths...
From their website they say they can stop a 4000 rpm blade in less than five (5) milliseconds. Now, the blade normally takes 60 seconds for 4000 rounds. In one millisecond, the blade would rotate 1/15 round... (that is one part of fifteen).
So, if the sawstop mechanism takes 5 milliseconds to stop, I would expect at most 5 x (1/15) ,that is, one-third of a full rev of the blade to plough thru before it stops.
Say, I'm ripping with a 24 teeth blade. In 1/3 rev, I would expect no more than 8 of those teeth to bite me. If I had been using a 60 teeth cuutoff blade, watch out! 1/3 of 60 is 20!
To be honest, I would reduce the fraction from 1/3 to 1/4 or 1/5 because I have not taken into account the deceleration... once the brake is applied, the blade is spinning down and it is not rotating at 4000 RPM during the entire 5 milliseconds. (So, how long it takes for brake shoes to engage? 1 millisec?)
Even then, for a 24 teeth ripper, 1/5 is 4+ teeth and for a 60 teeth cutoff, 1/5 is 12 teeth. Little consolation for me!
I wish the sawstop folks could give out details like these. In particular, they must already have exact figures for the rotation before complete stoppage. Instead of telling in terms of time (like milliseconds) it would be better to state the same in terms of percentage of a full rev of a 10" standard kerf blade spinning at 4000 RPM. Although I must agree there is more truth in their statement compared to claims like 3.25 HP routers on 115v, or 12" SP/ 1200 cfm with a 10" impeller 2 HP DC, and the like!
Afterall, they certainly have the brain to see through my simple math... don't they?
cg
snipped-for-privacy@nhsd.k2.pa.us (David Hall) wrote in message (Charlie Self) wrote in message > >    While I don't want to be flippant about the injury rates

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If a blade is rated at turning 4000 RPM, how fast is it turning while ripping pieces of 12/4 oak? or cutting 1/8" masonite?
What if they said it was a quarter of a blade rotation (say a 40T blade for this example) and you show some flesh on 11 teeth. Would that be grounds of a law suite?
Are you trying to calculate how far the blade will penetrate your hand? So many possible factors as to feed rate, blade speed, position of our hand, that it would not be easy to give a definitive answer and that would also leave them open to possible legal action. I think the more details they offer the more problems the are going to encounter. Ed
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It doesn't just stop. It retracts under the table.
David
cg wrote:

(Charlie Self) wrote in message > >    While I don't want to be flippant about the injury rates

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On 17 Nov 2004 12:50:31 -0800, snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com (cg) wrote:

<snip>
Some more simple math - ignoring the retraction of the blade and the angle of the leading edge of the blade WRT direction of feed.
Assume a feed rate of 1 foot per second - a pretty brisk but not unreasonable feed for thin soft stock. In .005 seconds (5 milliseconds) the stock would travel .060 inches. Therefore you could expect the blade to cut into your hand/finger/whatever approximately 1/16 of an inch before the blade came to a stop. That depth of cut is independent of the number of teeth or rotational speed of the blade.
A 1/8" wide and 1/16" deep dado cut in your finger may not be a pleasant experience but it would more likely require a Band-Aid instead of a trip to the ER.
That doesn't mean I favor legislation requiring this sort of device. Likewise it doesn't mean I oppose legislation requiring this sort of device.
Tom Veatch Wichita, KS USA
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wrote:

I'd like to see the saw for sale on the open market, but NOT legislated as a requirement.
Barry
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cg wrote:

So how many saw teeth have to go through your finger before your finger comes off?

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I don't know it it's so much a matter of the number of teeth as it is how far into your finger the teeth can get before the blade stops.
--
If at first you don't succeed, you're not cut out for skydiving



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The calculations above don't mean anything at all in the working of the saw. As for the number of teeth that will pass a given point of an arc, it is correct. What is NOT taken into consideration is the fact that the blade is also dropping down at the same time. Given the arc of the blade, coupled with the downward movement, the teeth are moving away from the contact point at the same time, so that must also be a part of the equation to determine actual contact. The finger (or hot dog) is moving is a straight line at a given speed, the blade outer circumference is moving down at an unknown speed. Thus, the actual contact will be less that what the OP is stating here. If it moves away faster than the lateral motion of the finger (or test kielbasa) there will be minimal contact even if the blade never stopped.
.
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TBone wrote:

Actually, it's how far into the teeth the finger can get. Any saw that can make good progress in ipe can cut finger as fast as you can feed it.
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Well, all I know is that when they demonstrate the thing with a hot dog it stops virtually instantaneously. The dog has just a slight knick in it.
--
Jeff P.

"A new study shows that licking the sweat off a frog
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Saw a live demo in Atlanta, he ran that hot dog into the saw blade alot faster than you would cut any piece of wood. He shoved a sled with the hot dog on it as fast as he could into the blade, not cutting the sled it was already cut the same size as the distance the fence was set from the blade. Hot dog only had a nick like the demo
Joe
(Charlie Self) wrote in message > > While I

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