Rojek Combination Tool?

[Toller]

If you enjoy the challenge of setting up your machines to 0.001", then go for it. I suppose it is interesting in its own right. I doubt my machines could be set up to that level of precision; they were all purchased used, and weren't very good to start with. Still, I just made a tabletop out of 7 pieces of 10" wide 5/4 oak. No putty, none needed; I was very careful about matching the grain and you can't tell where the individual boards are. Yeah, there are a places across the top where you could slip a pieces of paper (or maybe even two...) under a straightedge, but its darn good. From a jointer that was set by eye...

[Mike Marlow]

Yes, but those measurements at work also have tolerances, correct? And those tolerances are based on what? The stability of the materials, the stress loads, etc., I'm assuming.

That's a point I would disagree with - at least in the sense that beyond a certain level of accuracy there is no discernable improvement in tool performance. Certainly an alignment of a saw blade within .010" is going to cut better than on aligned to .1", but there is this concept of diminishing returns. Then again, the accuracy of the test equipment comes into play. Do you have, or do most people have test equipment that is calibrated, and precise enough to pursue the types of precision you have to deal with at work?

Hmmmmm... here we just went from the thickness of a piece of paper to 1/16" of an inch. That really does not do much to support an arguement for extreme precision. Unless of course, you write on some really thick paper. As for me, I buy the cheap stuff - only a coupla thousands thick.

This really is where these discussions go to hell every time they come up. Someone states that for the intended purpose, precision within a few ten-thousandths is acceptable, and along comes someone else who states how precision is much more important than that and inevitably mutates the acceptable error into some obscene value, just to attempt to prove their point. Unfortunately, the attempt fails because the discussion was never about 1/16" gaps in wood.

[dingbat]

So what's the contradiction? Woodworking tools work fine at those looser tolerances, you might easily measure to something far more precise than that. What's the problem?

There's also the issue that _lots_ of hobby woodworkers (those who aren't surgeons) have a day job that involves aerospace, toolrooms or other high-precision metal bashing. The relaxed tolerance of wood in the evenings is a pleasant contrast to working to sub-thou measurements all day. When you ask someone like this to measure something though, they just reach for the familiar tools out of habit and you get an answer in tenths of a thou.

As to Rojeks, then they're great. I've used them in two different workshops. Nice machines, well thought out design and easy conversion between tasks. Good build quality and accuracy.

If I had a chunk of money to buy new, and was limited for space to put it in, I'd be looking very seriously at a Rojek.

[Toller]

Thanks

[R. Pierce Butler]

"Mike Marlow" wrote in news:47668$4517b6e5$471fbb6d$ [e-mail]:

There are extremes at both ends of the philosophy. 1/16th being at one end and .001 being at the other. If I can attain and reproduce cuts at a tolerance +-.001 then I am going to do it. Why should I do anything less than the very best that I can? This level of accuracy doesn't require constant tweaking and adjustments.

I can cite may different reasons for going a bit overboard with machine setup, etc but it really depends on one's personal preferences.

I have built items with cut tolerances of 1/32 of an inch or so. I was never happy with the end product. This was due to a lack of proper tools or being in a rush or both. Now that I am able to build stuff with precision, I do it. It doesn't take much time and even if no one else knows that I took a little extra time to do it by my definition of "right", I do. Does that mean that the shed I am buildng is held to the same level of precison that I take when building furniture? Of course not.

In summary I demand the very best from myself and my tools.

[Mike Marlow]

I don't disagree with the pursuit of precision. My comments above were specifically related to the exageration of the discussion to tolerances of

1/16th of an inch, which started out at tolerances of a couple thousandths. The very argument that introduces such exagerations is by itself, an example of a very imprecise style of conversation. Actually, it is condescending and insulting at the very least. My commentary was soley in address of this argument style.

And I support personal preferences - as long as they are not held up to be something more holy than just that - personal preferences.

I've seen nothing posted in this thread that suggests that the other participants feel otherwise of their tools, projects or abilities.

[Swingman]

Is there some place we can see pictures of this precision built furniture?

[Toller]

He never said it was wood. I built a brass cannon once that was accurate to a few thousanths.

[dingbat]

I used to spend my day job making electronic machines for $10k's that would allow power presses to be adjusted according a simple "traffic light" setting gauge so any fool could work it. Previously they'd have had "Old Bob" come and listen to it for a while, then hit it with a stick.

Old Bob was often surprisingly accurate, but these factories had maybe

20 lines running at once and Bob only had the one pair of ears to go round.

[charlie b]

Back to the original question

"So, has anyone actually used this machine; or any other Rojek tool? Are there any other similar machines made? I would rather have a somewhat smaller 10" saw for instance."

Yes. In alphabetical order so as not to bias anything

Hammer - a slightly less expensive Felder line Felder - have the unit charges and the paddles ready cause the price tag will stop your heart Mini-Max - getting into my price range Robland - what I actually own - and use

's mine - in context are yahoo groups for most of the combis and that'd be a good place to get feedback from actual owners.

Things you might might want to know

Are you pretty methodical when it comes to woodworking? If not, any combi may be a problem for you.

will it take a dado blade?

if you cut dadoes and rabbets/rebates on your saw you'll need fine blade height adjustment. Robland's X31 combi doesn't have that abiltiy - but there's an after market bolt on that'll give it to you.

"drop in and they're set" joiner/planer knives or set yourself (drop in and they're set don't let you move a knife or two when you ding 'em. Being able to move one a little left and another a little right offsets the dings so you get back to smooth surfacing)

bore on the shaper cutter heads 3/4", 1 1/4" Diam or both? More shapes available for 1 1/4" bore

shaper head tiltable or not? Robland's doesn't tilt

joiner/planer cutter head reversable? This is important. iBy being able to reverse the direction you can use standard right hand twist bits - otherwise you have to go with left hand twist bits - which are harder to find and often more expensive.

Important: What's the availability of replacement parts and what's the time delay if the distributor has to order them from the manufacturer? You can't just go down to your local tool store and get parts - even in just a week. (all of these units are made in Europe. If you have to wait two or three months for a cargo container'w worth of parts in order to get YOUR parts it could be a problem)

Just some things to consider.

charlie b

[R. Pierce Butler]

"Mike Marlow" wrote in news:9352b$4517f586$471fbb6d$ [e-mail]:

If I made it sound condescending then I apologize. That was not my intent.

[R. Pierce Butler]

[e-mail] wrote in news:1159198353.072107.260940 @h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

Reminds me a story that an former boss told me. He knew a boiler inspector that would go around and inspect the boilers of steam locomotives. This inspector had a 6oz hammer and would tap each of the rivets that held the boiler together. He would then mark the rivets that were broken. He was right 100% of the time. My boss and others tried to figure out what was different between a good and bad rivet using the same hammer. He never did figure it out.

[Toller]

My shop is L shaped. The main room is 9.5' wide; the side room is 7' wide. I could stick the combination machine in the main room so I have plenty of room on either side, but little in front or in back; or in the corner so I have plenty of room in front and to one side, but little the other two directions. Am I likely to be able to use one of these? Rojek told me their footprint is 7'x7', but I don't know how much room is necessary to actually use it.

I found an article in FWW that said that the Robland was lightly made and had poor tolerances. They thought all the others were better. You apparently like the Robland; have they gotten over their problems?

Thanks much.

[Morris Dovey]

||| I have built items with cut tolerances of 1/32 of an inch or so. ||| I was never happy with the end product. || || Is there some place we can see pictures of this precision built || furniture? || | He never said it was wood. I built a brass cannon once that was | accurate to a few thousanths.

That's pretty impressive! Dare I ask at what range it was so accurate?

-- Morris Dovey DeSoto Solar DeSoto, Iowa USA

[cm]

Toller,

There was an article in Woodwork a few months ago that rated the Robland above the others.....

cm

[cm]

Watch for one on eBay or craigslist. There was just one in the Phoenix craigslist recently for a decent price.

[Bruce Barnett]

The precision also depends upon the task. And in some cases, the precision multiplies. By that I mean that the precision of one item affects the accuracy of another.

I have a crosscut sled. If I make four cuts on a piece of wood to make square, a 0.003" error in the fence can cause an error of

0.012" when I am done with the fourth cut.

Right now I am making a 12"x12"x10" box with 1/4" ply, and I'm using a

1/4" box joint on the edges. Inside the box will be a nesting box slightly smaller.

Yeah - 0.001" accuracy helps a lot.

[cm]

Heres one. A Robland K-26... never heard of that model????

[CW]

True.

[CW]

Actually, everything is accurate to within a few thousanths. Whether it is within a few thousanths of where you wanted it is another story.

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