Rip Fence Setup/Blade marks

Apologies if this is too frequent a question, I couldn't find an answer with a deja search.
I am getting blade marks when ripping. This condition developed gradually and I found that my fence had too much toe out. Correcting the toe out to a reasonable range didn't fix things but made them worse. My set-up is a Freud 24t red Teflon blade (LM72R)on a Powermatic Artisan table saw. Here are the characteristics: 1) The blade marks are identical/symmetrical on both the waste and the stock. 2) Cutting a 6" piece of wood and stopping just after it is cut. I get EITHER: a) With the rip fence set with too much toe out, there are identical upward marks on just the tail half of both stock and waste; the front remains smooth OR b)After reducing excessive toe out to about 1/32", there are identical upward marks on the tails of both the stock and the waste and identical downward marks on the fronts of both the stock and the waste. Is this just a toe out problem? I am confused by the marks being identical and symmetrical on both pieces of the cut and by the change I see with fence realignment. Suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Bob Warren
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Bob wrote: >Apologies if this is too frequent a question, I couldn't find an answer with

or try a different blade. Tom Work at your leisure!
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Have you tried a different blade, to see if this changes things?

1/32" is *still* excessive toe out, grossly excessive IMO. I keep mine around two or three thousandths -- which is actually dead parallel, within the limits of the surface flatness of the fence.
It is imperative to avoid toe *in*. But it is not necessary to deliberately induce toe *out* to achieve this.

Check the blade to make sure it's sharp, clean, and not warped or damaged in any way.
Try a different blade. See if that makes a difference.
Overtightening the arbor nut can distort the blade and possibly cause the marks you're observing
Re-check your alignment. Check your alignment *procedure* as well. Don't align the fence to the blade. Rather, align the blade dead parallel to the miter slot; then, align the fence dead parallel to the *same* miter slot. Add a bit of toe-out if it makes you feel better, but 1/32" is too much. 1/64" is *plenty*.
Make sure the splitter is aligned properly also. If that's off, it will cock the wood slightly to one side or the other, causing these marks.
If this is a thin-kerf blade, adding a blade stiffener may help.
The problem may be in your technique. I believe the Artisan has only a 1.5HP motor. If you're using hard (or thick) lumber, and feeding it too fast, you may be getting some wobble in the blade -- particularly if it's a thin-kerf blade. Try a slower feed rate to see if that makes a difference.
If none of that makes any difference... I think the next step is to remove the blade, and use a dial indicator to check the runout on the arbor and the arbor flange.
Good luck, and when you figure out the problem, please post your results.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com You must use your REAL email address to get a response.
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On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 09:45:02 -0400, "Barbour Warren"

clean your blade.
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I'm dense today - but I believe that "cross-hatch" marks (up and down marks together) are considered by some to be an indication of correct setup.
Apologies if you're saying your "not" seeing cross-hatch marks.
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On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 18:10:37 GMT, "patrick conroy"

equal tooth marks indicate a well aligned blade. with a good blade you should see *no* tooth marks.
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You may have 2 problems. First, I would say that your fence set at 1/32" is part or all of the problem. You have to reason that if your are feeding the wood into the side of the blade with a "toed out" fence you are going to see tooth marks somewhere. Set it to dead parallel to the blade. Then like Doug indicated, test the cut with another blade. If your blade has any run out you will see tooth marks also. Forrest goes for .001" run out.
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Don't really see the reason for that one. Have you tried it? I once set my fence back out from zero to over 1/16 to check the difference with different woods and burning. I never saw tooth marks with it further away, and don't see why you should. Yeah, one could say that you're now hitting the blade at an angle, but what of it? Set the fence rear out another 10 inches and you'll cut a very nice cove for molding.
Actually, as this developed gradually, my first thought is perhaps the simplest explanation: his blade has come loose.
Second one: unplug and rotate the blade by hand with a dial indicator against it, checking blade/mounting/arbor to see if it's square.
I did see one similar case, where everything was square and flat and on. Turned out the lock on the angle adjustment was loose enough to allow some movement, but only when enough pressure was applied, then it came back. That says use some pressure (back-and-forth) on both the blade and fence to make sure nothing is moving that shouldn't.
GerryG
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Umm, most people will save the waste side of the board and use it. That piece will have the tooth marks if the fence is toed out. Additionally if ripping a board that is 2 or 3 feet or longer, the board will try not easily follow the fence if the fence is toed out. The waste side will push against the saw blade and prevent the keeper side from following the fence.
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Okay, if you're talking about tooth marks on the waste side, then it could happen. However, the waste side often needs another cut to take it to size, and a small (ala .006-.012) at the fence rear shouldn't cause any issue. For the reason, see the next paragraph...
As for boards (other than sheet goods) which are several feet longer...that's a different story. That was a big thread maybe 4 years ago, and the conclusion was you didn't really need fence support much past the cut. (Conclusion? on the wreck? was more like a preponderance of opinions, maybe.) I was in the process of ripping a lot of long lumber at the time, and wanted the best cut edge so I tried it. One issue with ripping long thick lumber is that the wood can move after the cut. That's why we use a splitter to keep movement one way from binding the blade, but it can move the other way also and impact your cut. The short fence did make an improvement. IOW, once you get past the cut, the fence should not be guiding the wood. You do, of course, need enough of a fence past that to allow you to steady the last few inches of the cut.
GerryG
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It does happen.
However, the waste side often needs another cut to take it to size, and a small (ala .006-.012) at the fence rear shouldn't cause any issue.
Correct but you still end up with a piece with tooth marks. I personally do this for a living and the absence of tooth marks saves me time and work cleaning that avoidable problem up. Setting up a fence with toe out helps hide a problem with you equipment that should be corrected. Setting the fence with a toe out at wood workng shows where the demonstrator is only using short stock to sell a blade is great for selling a blade. You never see the guy doing the demo's ripping long pieces of stock.
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Well, I think the best is that we agree to disagree on this. I've never seen any rule that applies in all cases, and I don't often see much in the way of tooth marks. I do believe quite a few others (authors, not demonstrators) have recommended rear toe out also. Also, my TS was fully checked and aligned with a TS-Aligner, and that was used when I conducted my toe out tests for burning and tooth marks, so I don't see equipment problems hiding there.
Finally, I can appreciate that you do this for a living, and that your own procedures give you good quality. I could make similar claims with work I've done for contractors and cabinetmakers, but I don't think that would take us anywhere different. Readers should think about these issues, carefully try it for themselves, and judge their results.
GerryG
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