Ridgid Clearance Prices at the Borg

[Charlie Self]

Rick Chamberlain responds:

Maybe so. But there is no such thing as a free economy, anywhere, on any major scale.

Charlie Self

"I love California, I practically grew up in Phoenix." Dan Quayle

[Tom Bergman]

Hate to tell you this, but if all the garbagemen stopped working, the nation would be brought to its knees a heck of a lot faster than if all of us engineers stopped working (yeah, I'm one too). Not trying to flame, but the "importance of " what you do came across a bit arrogant. The fact is, if there never was an expendable launch vehicle I doubt the world would much notice. You'd notice trash that wasn't picked up right away.

Which job is really more important?

And a lot of engineering jobs are being shipped offshore, primarily to India. It's starting in high tech, but is likely to move to other disciplines rapidly. Your opinion of unions & protection of American jobs at much higher wages may change when someone overseas is willing to do your job, just as good as you can do it, for 1/10 your salary.

[Abe]

Not at all. I'm assuming businesses act in what they *perceive* to be their own $$ interests. This is hardly a debatable point. Business critics insist on it.

How many companies depend on sales to their own employees to stay afloat? This is a silly argument.

See above.

If they're making something for which there's a market, they prosper. Who buys their products? Probably the same people as before. ...See above.

Nonsense. We'd never in a million years have achieved the level of public well-being we enjoy now if it weren't for people and businesses trying to make a buck. Go read up on an extinct entity called the "Soviet Union".

I'll say.

Uh... That's how it actually IS in the real world. Corporations survive on revenue. Those that don't produce it cease to exist. Indeed, that's why companies are outsourcing to other countries. The litany of sins you name aren't unique to businesses. Individuals commit them too, as do unions. I don't see a point being made here.

Cheers, Abe

[George]

"APRÈS MOI (my emphasis) le deluge." Seems to be appropriate in this case as well. Some might even make the same statement for other "entitlements" like Social Security....

[Test Tickle]

And what I am saying is that the perception is not always the reality. Businesses used to take a much longer view than they have over the last couple of decades, where the sole purpose of many corporations is not to produce a good or service and market them for a profit, but to manipulate the company in order to increase the stock value. We've already seen that bubble burst.

In a global market, no single company relies on it's own employees as customers, not anywhere near the extent that Henry Ford did. But as each business and sector of the economy cuts back on employee wages, their are fewer earning available to spend. This puts a burden on us all.

But if those same people are laid off, or have their hours or salaries reduced, they cannot purchase the same quantity or variety of goods. It has a ripple effect throughout the economy. It's already hurt those on the lower half of the scale. Do you really think the top half can stay immune.

I agree. Private enterprise has achieved alot for this country. But completely unfettered business also created the Great Depression, the stock market crash of the 90s, the Enron debacle, and many others. Blind greed does not end in happiness.

No, many corporations succeed simply because of mass and momentum. I worked for UPS for many years, and they are as successful a business as there is today. But the competition habdles only a small volume of their potential business, and they aren't exactly the sort of jobs that can be exported overseas. But believe me, they are run so poorly that it is only their sheer size that keeps them going.

tt

[Test Tickle]

You believe Social Security is an entitlement?

tt

[Test Tickle]

This is incredibly naive. If every single union disappeared tomorrow, do you think one single worker would earn MORE money? That's a total crock. By the end of a year, I'd bet that almost all of them would have either a pay cut, loss of benefits, or both. Would this country ever have pensions or healthcare benefits at all without organized labor? Or even an 8 hour workday, paid holidays, sickdays, vacations, or anything? Not if each worker had always been forced to negotiate individually, that's for sure.

Do you really believe most workers are lazy? The vast majority bust their humps to make a living, and the poorer they are, the harder they work.

tt

[Test Tickle]

In the construction industry, this has been the law on all contracts for government work since the 1930s, and it has been the case on many projects where it is not mandated. It is also a law that businesses have been lobbying to have repealed for almost as long. Can you honestly say that if those contractors were allowed to pay lower wages, we would actually benefit from the savings?

Thanks Nova

tt

[Test Tickle]

Why shouldn't there be economic rights as well? You can't dismiss these arguments by labeling them as "communist." With all of the government support for industry, can you really call this a "free market" economy? Not hardly.

They may be satisfied, but they are poor. Should all of the poor be satisfied and happy with their lot? Perhaps they can wait to recieve their reward in the afterlife?

The AMA certainly does negotiate on behalf of their members. A doctor can change insurance companies, but do you really think there is any difference (or competition) between them? At least an electrician or plumber can set a high price for a job, and turn down the work if they don't like the pay. Doctors have to accept what the insurance carriers offer, are prohibited from charging over certain amounts, and most would be out of work if they suddenly had to charge all patients cash.

At least unions are more democratic than any business entity.

[Test Tickle]

Amen. I think the only truly free market is in Major League baseball. All of the attempts at slowing salary growth and create some kind of economic parity between teams, which most people agree with, is blatant socialism. If teams can't afford to compete, they should go under, right? It's funny how most conservatives are for regulating their favorite sports team, but not their own businesses.

There is no such thing as a free economy. Otherwise, I could do well by selling crack on the streetcorner.

tt

[Test Tickle]

It seems that you think this would be a good thing. Do you? It sounds like hell to me.

tt

[Rick Chamberlain]

Really. Perhaps you should study companies who don't have unions to deal with. I think you are incredibly naive to think that almost all business would be so callous as to take a step backwards in their employee relations.

Please don't read what you want to read. Read what I wrote. I said that any worker who didn't carry their weight would make less. I don't know how you can make the stretch that I think the majority of the work force is lazy.

Rick

[Rick Chamberlain]

True. All the more reason why there are no economic rights.

Even without a truly free economy (should we call it an "open marketplace" instead?), hard work and initiative are rewarded and laziness is not.

Rick

[Charlie Self]

Rick Chamberlain responds:

It isn't the doctor's insurance company. The patient is the insured person who pays the premiums.

Then 'splain this to me: if you have no insurance, your hospital, and doctor, fees range from 3 to 5 times as much as do those charged the insurance companies for the same procedures?

Charlie Self

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." Sir Winston Churchill

[Charlie Self]

Rick Chamberlain responds:

Nonsense. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Sometimes rewards go to the slickest, those with the fastest knife for another's back. Appearing busy and downtrodden with a work load is often better than actually doing a good job.

Charlie Self

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." Sir Winston Churchill

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Not always. Some years ago I got caught with no insurance and my wife needed surgery. Doctor cut his fee to 1/3 of normal. Hospital took 10% of what the insurance would have been billed.

My son has a business that supplies medical equipment. He takes what the insurance or Medicare pays. If not covered, he will often supply equipment for cost, sometimes even less. Ed

[Rick Chamberlain]

Charlie, there are always exceptions. But don't you agree that working hard and showing initiative is *generally* rewarded?

Rick

[Rick Chamberlain]

You're right. But the doctors CHOOSE which insurance carriers they deal with. They are not obligated to accept all carriers. I had to change eye doctors because my doctor chose to not accept my carrier anymore.

I don't know - maybe because they can only hope to recover a third through collections?

I'm not sure what that has to do with my point about doctors being forced to take what the insurance companies pay out.

Rick

[Charlie Self]

Edwin Pawlowski responds:

I never seem to run into those types when I'm without insurance. I paid almost $9000 total for knee surgery that insurance companies paid $2500 or less for. The next time I need hospitalization, I insisted the rescue squad take me nearly 30 miles out of the way to a hospital that didn't belong to that group.

My mother was an RN, and I grew up with a lot of respect for the medical profession in general. In the past 2 decades, that respect has just about disappeared.

Charlie Self

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." Sir Winston Churchill

[Charlie Self]

George babbles:

Uh, what does taxing the rich have to do with ANY of this? Nor did you explain how the cut-rate deals are possible.

I already agreed with your conclusion, I am just confused by your diatribe preceding it.

Charlie Self

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." Sir Winston Churchill