Ridgid Clearance Prices at the Borg

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Robert,
I suggest you come down to earth. Perhaps the fellows collecting garbage (and making 3x your salary) were at least 3x smarter than you. At least they figured out the game.
As for being impressed that you could sign DD250s don't be. No one who really understand wants to. I never signed one. I always had one of my managers or someone like you with a big ego do that. Got to preserve plausible deniability ya know.
Phil
Robert wrote:

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Robert,
I suggest you come down to earth. Perhaps the fellows collecting garbage (and making 3x your salary) were at least 3x smarter than you. At least they figured out the game.
As for being impressed that you could sign DD250s don't be. No one who really understand wants to. I never signed one. I always had one of my managers or someone like you with a big ego do that. Got to preserve plausible deniability ya know.
Phil
Robert wrote:

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@hotmail.com says...

Not at all. I'm assuming businesses act in what they *perceive* to be their own $$ interests. This is hardly a debatable point. Business critics insist on it.

How many companies depend on sales to their own employees to stay afloat? This is a silly argument.

See above.

If they're making something for which there's a market, they prosper. Who buys their products? Probably the same people as before. ...See above.

Nonsense. We'd never in a million years have achieved the level of public well-being we enjoy now if it weren't for people and businesses trying to make a buck. Go read up on an extinct entity called the "Soviet Union".

I'll say.

Uh... That's how it actually IS in the real world. Corporations survive on revenue. Those that don't produce it cease to exist. Indeed, that's why companies are outsourcing to other countries. The litany of sins you name aren't unique to businesses. Individuals commit them too, as do unions. I don't see a point being made here.
Cheers, Abe
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And what I am saying is that the perception is not always the reality. Businesses used to take a much longer view than they have over the last couple of decades, where the sole purpose of many corporations is not to produce a good or service and market them for a profit, but to manipulate the company in order to increase the stock value. We've already seen that bubble burst.

In a global market, no single company relies on it's own employees as customers, not anywhere near the extent that Henry Ford did. But as each business and sector of the economy cuts back on employee wages, their are fewer earning available to spend. This puts a burden on us all.

But if those same people are laid off, or have their hours or salaries reduced, they cannot purchase the same quantity or variety of goods. It has a ripple effect throughout the economy. It's already hurt those on the lower half of the scale. Do you really think the top half can stay immune.

I agree. Private enterprise has achieved alot for this country. But completely unfettered business also created the Great Depression, the stock market crash of the 90s, the Enron debacle, and many others. Blind greed does not end in happiness.

No, many corporations succeed simply because of mass and momentum. I worked for UPS for many years, and they are as successful a business as there is today. But the competition habdles only a small volume of their potential business, and they aren't exactly the sort of jobs that can be exported overseas. But believe me, they are run so poorly that it is only their sheer size that keeps them going.
tt
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Nothing to do with the multi million (hundred million, actually) dollar compensation that the CEOs and their ilk make, right (that exceeds all(?) other civilized nations mgmt compensation, particulary when measured as a percent or multiple of the peons' wages).
Renata
--snip--

(no stain for email)
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snipped-for-privacy@stainsmart.net says...

Not much, and whether executive salaries are higher in the US than elsewhere is irrelevant. So are worker salaries -- that's why outsourcing occurs. If the president of an S&P 500 company employing 25,000 earns a thousand times what an average worker makes, it's still small potatoes as a fraction of the company's aggregate personnel budget.
If you must find someone to blame for outsourcing, it might be all those greedy stockholders who selfishly want to actually earn some money on their investment rather than see the business run as a sort of social service.
Cheers, Abe
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Abe wrote:

How about 320,000 time the salary of the peon, and that was just his 16 million dollar bonus.
-- Jack Novak Buffalo, NY - USA
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Seems to me that Henry Ford paid these wages without pressure from a union. Are we to believe that the average American factory worker is unable to negotiate a fair wage for themselves? Or, that they cannot possibly do anything else other than factory work?
I find it interesting that teachers are unionized, but they still feel that they should be called professionals. Oxymoron, isn't it? How can anyone consider themselves a professional, yet allow some other entity to negotiate their compensation and benefit package? And then they sit back and complain when they aren't getting more than a 3-4% pay raise every year regardless of the economy or their performance.
I'm just glad my doctor, dentist, and lawyer isn't union.
Don't get me wrong - in the early 1900s, unions were important - mostly to fight for children, better working conditions, and shorter work days. With all the legislation out there today are you still saying unions are needed? I think not.
Rick Chamberlain
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So you could control a class of youngsters better than a "professional" teacher, Rick? If you have kids, count yourself lucky that not everyone decided to seek monetary rewards by becoming a lawyer, dentist, or Dr. I've got nothing against good dentists or doctors, but if no one wanted the satisfaction of teaching children where would that leave YOU? Home schooling, perhaps. Then where would you find time to earn money to buy that fancy car, house, and computer you are sitting in front of today? Don't be such a snob! Teachers are plenty professional. Whether or not they are in a union is irrelevant to their credentials. At some facilities nurses are unionized. At others they aren't. Some non-union facilities pay the same wages to attract quality people. I know from where I speaketh on that one. In either case, the professionalism of the nurse employed is identical at either job; if nurse Betty takes a job at a non-union job site, she hasn't suddenly become inept or stupid, or "non-professional".
dave
Rick Chamberlain wrote: snip

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Rick Chamberlain writes:

5 bucks a day. There are employers out there who would love to pay that today.

Yeah, well...I like teachers. Almost became one. But I do wonder why almost every teacher I know is rigidly against merit pay raises. There's always a screed against low pay, then another against merit pay.
Seems screwy to me.
Charlie Self
"A low voter turnout is an indication of fewer people going to the polls." Dan Quayle
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On 22 Aug 2003 22:33:19 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@aol.combleah (Charlie Self) wrote:

There are many that do. Migrant farm workers, and those subjected to disreputable "temp" services that charge outrageous fees and transportation charges, and the check-cashing facilities that charge outlandish percentages for their services.

I agree that the system needs alot of fixing, but I haven't seen a politically-initiated idea that had real merit either. Teachers may be very leery and skitish from the way they are treated -- just take a look at the references to teachers in this thread alone. I don't think the current system is anywhere near perfect, but I don't see how the unions can take very much of the blame for it.

Hmmm. I have a stack of the old "Quayle Quarterly" in a box somewhere. Do you remember that publication? Maybe I should scan them sometime.
tt
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"Merit" is not in the union lexicon. Acknowledging merit would also acknowledge the opposite - sloth.
The principle of unions is that all doing the same job are equal, though the bloated wages and benefits of today have caused several in our area to sell out the newer members to preserve their status. New hires come in between 50-65% of scale.

almost
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On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 11:16:36 GMT, "George"

That happened where I worked as well, and it was terribly destructive for everyone, workers and management. But is this an example of strong unions? It sounds like a weak union that caved in and made an expedient but short-sighted compromise.
tt
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"APRS MOI (my emphasis) le deluge." Seems to be appropriate in this case as well. Some might even make the same statement for other "entitlements" like Social Security....
wrote:

the
sell
between
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On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 20:49:06 GMT, "George"

You believe Social Security is an entitlement?
tt
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.combleah says...

No doubt there are, Charlie. And those employers would soon find the pool of workers has dried up.

Agreed. Most teachers would do quite well if they were allowed to negotiate their own contracts based on merit.
Rick
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Rick Chamberlain wrote:

With no organization? That would work really well.
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<snip>

And why not? Because people don't have the skill to negotiate, are too lazy to negotiate, or are afraid that they aren't worth the money?
Negotiation is a part of daily life.
Rick
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Rick Chamberlain wrote:rganization? That would work really well.

How many people do you think would be driving Chevy's if GM had to incur the expense of negotiating contracts on an individual basis?
-- Jack Novak Buffalo, NY - USA
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Jack,
Not sure, but companies with as many or more employees as GM (non-union, of course) go through this exercise regularly.
Perhaps I didn't frame the context properly. My contention is that many union workers could be making much more if they were allowed to negotiate directly for a raise based on merit. Unfortunately, my mother in law (who is a teacher for the MPS system) and my dad (who retired from American Can company before they sold out) were forced to take what the union got for them.
Of course, on the flip side, that would mean that many union workers who don't carry their weight would make less. But, isn't that the American way? To reward hard work and initiative and let the marketplace decide the disposition of those who don't share the same work ethic?
Rick
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