Re: What is it? LXXVII

[Matthew Russotto]

Far as I know, all the explanations for this have been shot down. Brass monkey being used to hold iron canonballs among them.

[LRod]

You may want to read any of the 20 Patrick O'Brian novels to learn that shipboard artillery was not handled this way. Having done extensive research, he knew a little of what he was talking about and dealt with the subject fairly extensively in his books.

[Tim Williams]

Not to mention the balls are most likely made of cast iron, only further negating the shrinkage (though sudden changes could maybe leave the monkey colder than the balls for a few hours).

Tim

-- Deep Fryer: a very philosophical monk. Website:

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

Well, actually, brass monkeys were used to hold balls on deck, but for presentation and inspection, not for "ready shot".

I'll agree with the rantings of one poster who cited the relative expansion coefficients of brass and iron, that it doesn't look like contraction alone could do it.

(I don't contend this is right, but) The common anecdote has the trivets forged. What if they were cast in one piece? What about possible embrittlement of cast brass at low temperatures? If a cast brass trivet were heavily secured at its apexes (apices?) to a deck that tends to rack and twist somewhat (as all wooden ships do), and the temperature dropped to, say, -20F, what might happen to the mechanical integrity of the brass? Would it crack?

LLoyd

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

No I didn't. I even concurred with him in another post. Don't accuse me of being casual about your opinions unless you at least pay attention.

LLoyd

[Lloyd E. Sponenburgh]

I already did know that. But triangular racks for dress did (and still do) exist. Used for presentation, not battle.

LLoyd

[Robert Bonomi]

Unfortunately, the above is *NOT* factual. It makes a good story, but --- 1) there are no authoritative references to those triangular frames as a monkey (or variant of the word). I ran this down with several professional military historians. 2) work out the thermal 'coefficient of expansion/contraction' for the materials involved -- the fit 'at room temperature' would have to be incredibly tight for the differences over, say 100 degrees F, to cause the pyramid to tumble.

The "most reliable" history of the phrase traces it to cheap brass castings from India, of "seated" monkeys (be it the classical "three monkeys" poses, or others) imported to England and other Northern climes, with the subsequent weather extremes leading to stress fractures at the relevant point in the anatomy.

NOTE: I believed the 'naval' version to be the accurate story for many years. had to do a bunch of digging to attempt to verify, when a career military (artillery) person questioned it. Come to find there _wasn't_ any factual basis. Despite the very plausible sound of it.

A few years later, "Cecil Adams" (of 'The Straight Dope') published his research on the matter -- with the results cited above, with a note along the lines of: 'improbable as it seems, this phrase is a literal description ...'

[Joseph Gwinn]

No.

Come on..."cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey" is a figure of speech, not an engineering report. And I bet the original reference, now lost in pre-history, was to a brass statue of a monkey.

Joe Gwinn Joe Gwinn

[Bruce Barnett]

Let's go though this, since you claim I wasn't paying attention..

Mark said

You said

[snip]

Mark replied:

To summarize, Mark posted some specific references that clearly give evidence that your etymology is not "definite" but an urban legend. You read them, (as you just claimed) yet you persisted in stating that there is a definite etymology that disagrees with those references.

And when challenged, you refer to some "black powder historians" that have no names, and no document, and no web site to back up those facts.

When did I not pay attention? Please correct me....

[George Weinberg]

Tight as a female brass monkey's... ahh never mind.

George

[Jeff Wisnia]

I'm really beginning to feel guilty about getting all this started with what I intended as just a silly jest about the brass balls on the "What is it" Item 436.

If SWMBO perchanced to read this thread she'd no doubt voice her disgust by calling all of us "Tech Tools", which is what she calls me when I perseverate endlessly about some inconsequential subject. :-)

Jeff