Was chain sawing a Monterey Pine today and have a few basic questions:
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My main question is about the chain:
I was stupid, it seems, and I had been buying chains from Home Depot, who only sells the Y62 chain for my 18-inch Husky 445, which I only recently found out, really takes an H72 (which Lowes sells) chain:
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So *maybe* that's why my chains kept falling off while cutting?
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What damage could I have done by running at least two chains (maybe 3) that were, in effect, the wrong chains because Home Depot sold me a Y62 instead of what Lowes sold me, which is the H72 for that Husqvarna 445 chainsaw.
There are 3 main things to consider when buying a chain - pitch , drive link thickness , and number of drive links . Most saws run either .325 or
3/8" pitch , .050 or .062 thickness , and the number of drive links varies with length . The 2 parts that you might have damaged are the drive sprocket and the bar and both are easy to replace . The main things people do to chains are run them too tight and run them dull , both will stretch the chain and make it fall off ... the best way I found to gauge sharpness is to check the chips . Large coarse chips indicate a sharp chain , small or "sawdust" chips indicate a dull chain . If your cut wanders it could be 2 things , either the bar is worn or the chain is duller on one side . If the chain can be wiggled sideways more than just a tiny bit , the bar is probably due to be replaced . I've been buying my chains from an ebay seller , cheaper than HD or Lowes for a better quality chain . I also buy a chain with a "professional" tooth profile - they cut much more aggressively , but they WILL kick back and are not intended for Joe-the-average-homeowner to prune his maple trees . I've currently got 3 saws , all run well , and all were given to me by people who couldn't keep them running/cutting well . They all needed a carb cleaning and new chains/bars , one also needed a new drive sprocket . But I'm set add more to the 3 cords I have cut/split/stacked when the weather cools off some more . Oh , and to answer your question about slicing lengthwise , it's much more efficient to split that wood with either a maul or hammer and wedge . Good aerobic exercise too !
Terry Coombs wrote, on Mon, 29 Sep 2014 07:39:49 -0500:
That is useful information; but ... what confuses me is that the lady at Oregon clearly told me the (quixotic) datapoint that the chain is
*different*, even with the same pitch, gauge, and number of links, when used with the "micro-lite" bar.
So that's a confusing datapoint, because the pitch, gauge, and number of drive links is the same for both the Oregon G72 chain (that, they say, belongs on my bar) and for the Oregon H72 chain that I bought (which apparently does *not* belong on my bar).
To get another datapoint, I called Husqvarna today at 800-487-5951, where they patch you to a 3rd-party 1st-level support person, who can only look up stuff before referring you to the local Husqvarna service personnel.
The lady who answered at 800-487-5951, named Keisha, didn't know all that much, but she was nice enough to ask me to read off the numbers on my bar to find the right chain, which she says, is the Husqvarna H30x-72 chain, which she says, is a "special" chain, which I can order from them, for $34.84 (i.e., $24.85 + 9.99 S&H).
She told me I did have the special "micro-lite" bar, after she asked me for the numbers stamped on the bar itself, which were:
Part number = 5089261-72
Pitch = 0.325"
Gauge = 0.050"
Drive Links = 72DL
Other unknown stampings: U49, 15, 1103, & 18
So, the weird (and confusing) datapoint is that both Husqvarna and Oregon told me that, even with the right pitch, gauge, and drive links, there still are *two* different chains, depending on whether I have the standard bar or the micro-lite bar (and I have the micro-lite steel bar).
Who would have known it's this inexplicably complicated, but, I still fail to see how the micro-lite bar (which takes thinner cutters) could be damaged when the part below the midline of the chain is supposedly the same gauge.
I suspect the wider chain puts more stress/wear on the slot . I have no experience with Husqvarna saws , though I've heard they're pretty good . I've learned just enough past the basics to keep my equipment running and cutting well ...
Terry Coombs wrote, on Mon, 29 Sep 2014 15:06:35 -0500:
Apparently even Oregon bars can be "micro-lite" as this explanation shows:
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"Micro-Lite is the name for the lean, mean narrow-kerf chains and narrow-kerf guide bars from Oregon. The advantage of using a leaner narrow-kerf cutting system is that it requires less power from the saw to make the same length of cut. By cutting a narrower kerf, the saw does not have to remove as much wood."
You'd think the Husqvarna owners manual would mention that a 'standard' chain, even if it's the right pitch, gauge, and number of drive links, will eventually damage the narrow-kerf bar.
The Oregon PDF goes on to explain what's *different* about the narrow-kerf bars, which still makes no sense to me because the incompatible chains are the *same* pitch, gauge, and number of drive links!
"To help a Micro-Lite chain cut its narrower kerf, Micro-Lite bars are built slightly thinner than standard bars. If Micro-Lite chain is run on a standard bar, there may be hang-ups during the cut. And if standard chain is run on a Micro-Lite bar, all the performance advantages of cutting a narrower kerf will be lost."
That doesn't go so far to say that the bar will be damaged, but, clearly, both the Husqvarna and Oregon customer service personnel told me that using the non-microlite chain on a micro-lite bar, will damage the bar, even though the chains are the same dimensions for pitch, gauge, and number of drive links.
Danny D. wrote, on Mon, 29 Sep 2014 20:51:58 +0000:
Since I was confused by the fact that the new H72 chain of identical pitch, gauge and number of drive links as the G72 chain would *not* fit my 18-inch Husqvarna 445 chainsaw recently bought at Lowes, I called Oregon directly at the number shown in that Micro-Lite brochure (503-653-8881):
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At that number, I asked to speak with their most knowledgeable guy, who turned out to be "Vic" who told me that the 18-inch Husqvarna 445 could have come with any of three (3) different bars:
Standard-kerf bar, 0.050 gauge, 0.325 pitch, 72 drive links, or,
Narrow-kerf bar, 0.050 gauge, 0.325 pitch, 72 drive links, or even,
what he called a "3/8-inch 50-gauge bar".
I told him that the Oregon H72 chain package should say something like: ** ensure that your bar is a STANDARD-kerf bar! And he said he'd get that information over to the right people.
He agreed that, even though the pitch, gauge, and number of drive links are the same, the Oregon H72 is the *wrong* chain for the narrow-kerf bar that is on my Husqvarna 445 (the right chain is the Oregon G72).
Vic explained that the cutting edge is a "few thousandths" thinner on the narrow-kerf chains, and that the "rails" of the narrow-kerf bars is proportionately thinner (hence, the bar itself is thinner).
When I countered that the gauge is the same, he mentioned that the
*depth* of the groove on the bar is the same; it's just that the rails on the bar are different.
He wasn't totally sure what damage would result, but he said that the wider cutting edge "could" hit something inside the chain saw (which he agreed was probably unlikely); and he said that the top-heavy wider-kerf chain "could" possibly damage the admittedly thinner rails of the narrow- kerf bar.
All in all, the takeaway is that it is *not* sufficient to match a chainsaw by the pitch, gauge, and number of drive links. One also has to match the width of the kerf cut by the cutting edge.
On Mon, 29 Sep 2014 21:25:04 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D." wrote as underneath :
So what is the difference between the kerf width of the three chains? I doubt that a few thou would start catching on the chainsaw body unless the body clearances are tighter than they should be on any chainsaw. You may get accelerated wear on the bar rails if you tend to tilt the bar in the kerf with the wider chains. But the chain you got should be usable in my guestimation, just try to keep the bar straight in the cut. C+
One of my saws, a small Stihl, has a 14 inch bar and is aimed at homeowners who want to cut up small stuff. It uses an anti-kickback chain made for infrequent users, folks who don't have much experience with chain saws and how to use them. The part of the chain that fits into the bar is about .005" thinner that normal chain. So even though there is a chain that has the same pitch and so on it will not fit easily into this bar. I was able to find a more aggressive chain than the stock one but the better chain for lots of cuts won't fit in the bar so I will be buying another bar for this saw because it gets lots of use. I imagine your chains are the same. I can push the thicker chain into the bar but it drags so much that the bar would overheat quickly. I suppose I could put the chain in with some lube and run it slowly and eventually wear the bar to fit but I'm just gonna buy another bar. I'll get a 16 inch bar because the Stihl dealer says that a 16 inch bar is really the longest bar the saw can pull and still cut fast. Eric
On Tue, 30 Sep 2014 08:51:35 -0700, snipped-for-privacy@whidbey.com wrote as underneath :
OP said all three chains were .050 so this is not useful, an extra .005 would be a major difference. I wouldnt dream of force using a .055 chain in a .050 bar. asking for a jam and superfast sprocket wear. C+
Note how many different types of 0.325 pitch chain is available.
0.325 is not the same as 3/8 which is 0.375.
I suggest you buy or download the Oregon "Maintenance and Safety Manual". Lots of good info that might keep you out of trouble: I'm not sure where to get the printed version. I forgot where I stole my copy.
Charlie+ wrote, on Wed, 01 Oct 2014 07:34:33 +0100:
The amazing thing is that all three customer service personnel insisted that *damage* could result to the bar, even though the two chains in question, namely the Oregon H72 versus the Oregon G72, all have the same three primary dimensions of pitch, gauge, and number of drive links (as do the Husqvarna H20 and H30 chains).
They all said there are four (4) dimensions that must be matched!
pitch (distance between links)
gauge (thickness of the part that goes into the rail)
drive link number (determines the length of the chain, with pitch)
kerf width (a major determinant of the power needed to cut & kickback)
REFERENCES: Vic of Oregon @ 503-653-8881 Becky of Blont International @ 800-223-5168 (aka Oregon 3rd-party repair) Keisha of Husqvarna @ 800-487-5951
Jeff Liebermann wrote, on Wed, 01 Oct 2014 01:23:46 -0700:
That link explained the four (4) types of kerfs:
Chisel Kerf
Narrow Kerf (Must Be Matched with Narrow Kerf Bars!)
Semi-Chisel
Skiptooth Versions
Notice that, even though the pitch, gauge, and number of drive links are the same, the "narrow-kerf" chain (#2 in the list) must be used with the narrow-kerf bar (which is also called the "micro-lite" bar), which has the same depth of slot and the same width of slot, but which has thinner rails.
What I can't fathom is *how* the outer part of the chain can damage the bar, since the part that fits into the bar is the *same* gauge!
For example, the 18" "standard" Oregon H72 chain is what I had been told at Lowes to buy, but, the correct chain for my Husqvarna 445 (also from that Lowes store) is the 18" Oregon G72, both of which have the same pitch, gauge, and number of drive links:
Jeff Liebermann wrote, on Wed, 01 Oct 2014 01:23:46 -0700:
The strange part about that link is this sentence: "This chain will not work well with standard chainsaw bars, so you will need to match your chain with a narrow kerf bar..."
Given, AFAWK, the only difference with a narrow-kerf bar from a standard bar is (reputedly) the thickness of the rails, two strange questions must result from that information:
*Why* does a narrow-kerf bar have thinner rails than a standard-kerf bar, when the kerf is *outside* the rails?
How can they say we must *match* the chains to the narrow-kerf bar, when the parts that goe into the bar (i.e., the drive links themselves) are exactly the *same* in both cases?
(e.g., the gauge, which is the part inside the rails) is the *same* on the standard 0.050" gauge Oregon H72 and the narrow-kerf 0.050" gauge Oregon G72 chains)
Makes no sense, to me, but, three people (who should know) confirmed this.
Jeff Liebermann wrote, on Wed, 01 Oct 2014 01:23:46 -0700:
I called the number at that reference 707-984-8115 but it is 3am in California and only 6am Eastern, so the "answering service" took down my question and someone will call me back at 9am Eastern (6am my time) to answer my question of:
Q: How can a standard-kerf chain possibly damage a narrow-kerf bar?
Jeff Liebermann wrote, on Wed, 01 Oct 2014 01:23:46 -0700:
That's the least expensive I've *ever* seen an 18" chain go for!
The "Woodland Pro" brand chain is only $13 (free shipping too). "CHAIN = WoodlandPRO 18" Chainsaw Chain Loop (20NK-74 Drive Links) This chain is designed to run *exclusively* on narrow kerf bars."
Here's the blurb: "20NK will fit saws using Oregon 95VP series and Husqvarna H30 chains. 20NK will not perform well unless matched with a narrow kerf bar. 20NK chain sharpens with a 3/16" round file or 1/8" grinding wheel. Chain manufactured in the U.S.A. by Carlton."
The only problem is that it's *not* a low-kickback chain!
When a tooth is cutting there is force applied toward the bar, thinner bar less able to resist that force. The greater the tooth bite, the greater the force. Ditto for any lateral motion.
I think the reason for the thinner rails (hence thinner bar) is that the narrow kerf chain cuts a narrow kerf so the bar itself must be thinner in order to have the same clearance inside the wood.
So, in effect, the thinner bar isn't there so much as to accommodate the "chain", but, I think, as to accommodate the thinner cut in the wood.
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