Re: Tools of the Trade TS Safety

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On 12/19/2012 8:51 AM, Leon wrote:

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And, I'll bet that an independent postmortem accident analysis would show that a very high percentage of the 8% who blamed the saw or claimed a "complete fluke" would also find most blame owing to the operator.
...

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Still not convinced, no. How do we know who was the sample in either?
Either may/may not be at all close to an actual overall real rate; no way to tell from either whether one should believe it an unbiased sample or not.
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On 12/19/12 8:51 AM, Leon wrote:

Every time I see one of those "professional remodelers" on all of these home flipping/fixing TV shows, I about cringe at their horrible technique around the saw.
--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
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On 12/19/2012 10:45 AM, Mike Marlow wrote: ...

How so? Making exaggerated claims of heightened risk to drive sales doesn't serve their purpose of increasing sales from the fear factor for inexperienced and/or new, first-time buyers?
Pro's will judge whether the feel the feature is worth it based on their own knowledge independent of such "statistics" but I'm sure it has an effect on the general population of potential buyers at large... otherwise, advertising in general wouldn't work.
--



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On 12/19/2012 1:35 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:

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And the point is????
Anybody who knows enough to know any better won't be paying any attention to that anyway. Anybody who _is_ swayed by them is highly unlikely to even question their validity.
And, how's anybody going to prove them wrong no matter what they say? They can always figure out some way to manufacturer a number whether it has any bearing on anything or not.
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On 12/19/2012 3:13 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:

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...
Who can do anything that hurts 'em whatever they say, though? They're the only game in town w/ the product that relies on the issue as a sales tactic (that I'm aware of anyway).
But, as was posted upthread by Scott, the NEISS database has numbers in the realm of 30,000/annum. Dividing that out does give roughly the numbers to justify the time clock for _any_ accident whatever regardless of the severity. I'm surprised it's that high, but whatever...it does seem that a 5-6X over the number of actual sampled cases would lead to a much higher CV than 0.1 but if the sampling basis is weighted well enough it is possible. I've no idea what sort of verifications have been done on these and in the background pages that isn't mentioned and I don't have the time nor inclination to go digging further.
As I've said before, imo it's just tacky, but it's SS's claim to fame so they've got to do what they can to justify the price differential.
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On 12/19/2012 1:35 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:

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I was intending to add that in addition to the actual safety feature itself (and again I have no qualms that it is _a_good_thing_ (tm) as a general capability) many professionals may well choose SS simply as a liability mitigation step whether they personally care or not. Sad that business has come to that, but in today's environment a small business has to be terribly concerned about such.
And, the biggest problem w/ the SS "statistics" is that they don't provide any reference for their claims; they're just there in the FUD realm of the same ilk as negative campaign ads or the "SS is going away" nonsense of the "geezers of America PAC" scam bunch to keep the blue-hairs in FL in line.
--
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*snip*

*snip*
I saw a quote, maybe it was a signature, that said something to the effect of very few people with 10 fingers use their blade guard, while 100% of people with 9 fingers do.
Btw, I was looking at a new DeWalt contractor's saw at Lowes a few weeks ago. The blade guard assembly was easy to install and remove. I wonder if it will actually get used more often.
Puckdropper
--
Make it to fit, don't make it fit.

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On 12/19/2012 12:51 PM, Puckdropper wrote:

I use the table saw to cut mitres. It is dificult enough to get the required accuracy on the 8 cuts without the added obstruction of the blade guarde.
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A strip of self-adhesive sandpaper on the face of the miter gauge helps keep the stock registered.
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On 12/19/2012 2:52 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:

I use staples to keep things aligned. Rough cut the sides of the frame, and then staple the opposite sides, and make shave cuts to the final length. I also use a fixed 90 degree miter gauge. Get decent precision if I say so myself.
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On 12/19/2012 11:51 AM, Puckdropper wrote: ...

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Of all the folks I know missing fingers, all but one lost them either working cattle, farm equipment or oil patch. The only two that had much in common were rings that got caught; one on a nail on a fence when the fella' jumped down, another on a hay fork that got the ring...
I can think of roughly a dozen as I write either here in town or TN/VA that I knew/worked with.
I have yet a full complement (w/ only a couple of significant scars and neither of those were ww-related--the most severe losing a first finger nail to the tusk of a boar hog trying to doctor screw worm in an ear on--that hurt!) and have spent a considerable fraction of approaching 70 yr in one of the above either as fulltime or seriously involved if not actual firstline employment.
--
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I have an uncle who lost part of a finger on an old square-head jointer in high-school in the early 50's. He's still is a fine woodworker in his late-70's.
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On 12/19/2012 12:32 PM, dpb wrote:

SWMBO's uncle and grandfather were missing a few digits each. Don't let a sow with piglets get near your pinkies!
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On 12/19/2012 2:46 PM, Doug Winterburn wrote:

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...
Generally they got the piggies before the pinkies...the ill-advised movement by the activists to force the elimination of farrowing crates will certainly increase that if it succeeds in large volume.
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On Wed, 19 Dec 2012 13:46:14 -0700, Doug Winterburn

Considering that pigs are omnivorous, I wouldn't be surprised if they went after one's digits all the time.
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On Wednesday, December 19, 2012 11:51:58 AM UTC-6, Puckdropper wrote:

I suspect it will get used more. My table saw has a Delta UniGuard on it. This is the aftermarket guard that puts a separate plastic container above the blade and a separate splitter/anit kickback fingers behind the blade. It is very easy to use. Never gets in the way. I'm guessing if all table saws came with this slightly expensive safety device, then it would get used all the time.
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"Puckdropper" <puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com> wrote

While I was teaching carpentry, I HAD to use a blade guard with my students. I actually got used to it after a couple years. There is very little that can not be easily done with it in place, once you learn how.
--
Jim in NC


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On 12/19/2012 9:51 AM, dpb wrote:

Well you can be suspicious but this survey was taken from a trade magazine not normally offered to the public in general. And, my ER plastic surgeon 23 years ago indicated that a TS accident coming in the door was common place, pretty much daily.
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On 12/19/2012 2:21 PM, Leon wrote: ...

"Suspicious" has nothing to do with it. It's simply a case of survey data is only as valid as the basis under which it is taken and any conclusions drawn from are again only valid when they are related to the underlying population from which they're supposed to be representative in a known fashion.
The subject survey results are the sample estimate of the population that responded to the survey but what does that population have to do w/ any other? There's no way to know.
Hence, there's no way to use that data to make any projection on anything but that particular sample of roughly 800 participants. It certainly doesn't do anything to help in estimating some number of incidents in some larger population at large.
--
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Indeed. And basing one's opinion on a single anecdotal piece of evidence from one single plastic surgeon seems to be unwise.
Injury data from the CPSC for the USA in 2009:
Ladder/Stool falls: 246,733 Lawnmower accidents: 86,000 All power tools: 83,204 Paints/Chemicals: 53,907 Chain Saw: 26,593
There are 5,000 US Hospitals with emergency departments.
That averages out to 17 power tool accidents per year, per hospital.
To break it out further, in 2011, there were 694 table saw accidents reported to the CPSC NEISS, which extrapolates to the historical estimate of 32,251 cases in 2011. That averages out to 6 table saw accidents per year per hospital.
<https://www.cpsc.gov/cgibin/NEISSQuery/home.aspx
Table saw is product code 841
both of these are a far cry from Leon's anecdotal quote:
"And, my ER plastic surgeon 23 years ago indicated that a TS accident coming in the door was common place, pretty much daily."
In looking at the case file for 2009 (783 cases), the majority seem to be finger lacerations and amputated fingertips, although there are a couple of crushed fingers and a few kickback injuries, e.g.:
PT STATES SHE WAS WORKING W/A TABLE SAW AND A BLOCK BLEW BACK INTO HER FACE. DX. EYE INJ R HYPHEMA CONT, SCRAPES AND ABRAS.
PT WAS USING A POWER TABLE SAW AND A PIECE OF WOOD KICKED BACK SUSTAINED A LACERATION TO LOWER LEG
TABLE SAW JUMPED AND CRUSHED AND LAC FINGER TIP    
Interestingly, the average patient was 54 years old. I suspect the median is higher given the distribution of the ages.
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