RE: T/S Inertia

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"CW" wrote:

Good rule.
Lew
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None of these saws have blade guards?
--
Never underestimate the stupidity of a know-it-all.


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First one, I had the guard on for about two days, then I took it off and never put it back. The one I have now, I never put the guard on. Didn't even know that I still had it. Ran across it the other day, still in the factory sealed bag.
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You know, I used to be about like anyone else, in that I never used a guard on a table saw. That all changed 18 years ago, when I took a job teaching carpentry at the local high school. It was made very clear to me that any and all safety devices available were to be used, at all times.
For the first year or so I fussed under my breath, any time I had to run the table saw with the guard in place. Slowly, I began to realize that they really were not all that bad, in nearly all cases.
Now, I seldom think a second thought about the guards. The obvious exception is when using a tenion jig, or dado blade or other or other cuts that do not go all the way through the workpiece. Even then, there are guards available for the second class of cuts mentioned above.
So really, if everyone just made up their mind to keep with a guard until they got used to it, you would find that it is a rare case where the guard slows them down or prevents accurate cutting.
--
Jim in NC




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On 8/8/2010 2:18 PM, Morgans wrote:

Most of the cuts I've done in the past month have used a sled of some kind--for that the guard provided with my saw is not workable--while in some cases the sled will slide under it various pieces raise the guard so high that it might as well not be there.
At the same time, on repetitive cuts, I find myself losing focus on the blade--I know that if I don't put some kind of guard in place I'm going to hit it eventually. You do 20 or so of the same movement and a conditioned response starts to form that takes the higher brain functions out of the loop ("wax on, wax off"). So project for the week is figuring out how to guard the sled.
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No problem. Put a guard on the sled. With tools and bits and pieces around, it takes about 30 seconds.
Have a tall fence on the sled, front and back, with a piece of plexi drilled and screwed onto the sled fence, front and back. The plexi is only wide enoug to cover past where you would never put your fingers, anyway, so it does not impeed use, at al.
Have some blocks around of different height, for different thickness workpieces.
Too wide for your sled to have a block on each side? Put both blocks on one side, and let the plexi cantilever over the cutting area.
My point is, if you _ _have_ _ to have a guard on your saw, you _will_ be creative and think of a way to get the job done, as you want to do it, and still be safe.
--
Jim in NC



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On 8/8/2010 4:35 PM, Morgans wrote:

If it was just a sled that would be fine, but the sled holds various jigs and fixtures and the trick is fitting the guard so that they all still work properly.

Yep. But it's not going to be trivial for this particular case.
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J. Clarke wrote:

This is what is dangerous, imo.
I know that if I don't put some kind of guard in place I'm going

This part I don't think so. I think the blade guards promote taking the "higher brain out of the loop".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjvmFjRqFEc&feature=related

I couldn't find the video of the one I saw on TV a few years ago, those guys made this stuff look safe...
Anyway, I don't use guards, my saw didn't come with one, and if it did, I'd remove it. Knowing my saw can cut off my hand in an instant if I'm not careful keeps my brain in gear. If I was so worried about it and thought I couldn't get by w/o a guard, I'd buy a saw stop, still wouldn't fuss with a guard. The only caveat I have is age. As you get older, eyes are worse, reactions are worse, and brain goes out of the loop much easier than it did in the past. So far, knowing this has made me more careful than ever, but saw stop is looking more interesting as I the years add up...
--
Jack
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Having chopped half my thumb off after cutting dado's and after turning the saw off, the safe procedure for me is to always keep my focus on the blade if you are close enought to touch it until it comes to a complete stop.
Snip

Agreed, I have used a guard and finally took it off after it cause me to get hurt but not badly many years before chopping my thumb. Small pieces can get caught in the guard, get trapped, and shoot out like a bullet. Reguardless of what safety measures you take, eventually you are going to get hurt one way or another. It's just a risk you take. And NEVER assume you will not get hurt because of some short sighted notion that you know all the safety rules, safety rules don't cover half of what could happen.
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Years ago I was attempting to create a CD rack (bored) using an old 3/4" piece of oak. I was going to dado some exact width slots in it for the CD's to stand up and tilt in, using a table mounted router.
After about the third or fourth dado slot I found the router bit came right up through the top (backside) of the piece. The router depth locking screw came loose (or I forgot to tighten it) and the vibration from the table made the router gear rack screw itself right up through the 3/4" depth of the wood instead on holding a 3/8" depth slot. I never figured that was possible until I was staring at the 30K RPM bit by my fingers.
Wasted piece of wood (made it shorter) but the lesson was a good one learned. Nobody got hurt but I never (If I ever did?) put my hands over top of the router bit, anymore, no matter how thick the piece is. Pusher sticks and distance became paramount.
You know, I used to be about like anyone else, in that I never used a guard on a table saw. That all changed 18 years ago, when I took a job teaching carpentry at the local high school. It was made very clear to me that any and all safety devices available were to be used, at all times.
For the first year or so I fussed under my breath, any time I had to run the table saw with the guard in place. Slowly, I began to realize that they really were not all that bad, in nearly all cases.
Now, I seldom think a second thought about the guards. The obvious exception is when using a tenion jig, or dado blade or other or other cuts that do not go all the way through the workpiece. Even then, there are guards available for the second class of cuts mentioned above.
So really, if everyone just made up their mind to keep with a guard until they got used to it, you would find that it is a rare case where the guard slows them down or prevents accurate cutting.
--
Jim in NC





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That's an oddball one. I would have figured the weight of the router would have caused the whole shebang to drop, not rise. I could see a loose collet causing the bit to rise. Either way, it's like Sancho Panza said, "Whether the rock hits the pitcher, or the pitcher hits the rock, it's bad for the pitcher."
R
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wrote:

That's an oddball one. I would have figured the weight of the router would have caused the whole shebang to drop, not rise. I could see a loose collet causing the bit to rise. Either way, it's like Sancho Panza said, "Whether the rock hits the pitcher, or the pitcher hits the rock, it's bad for the pitcher."
It was very common with Craftsman routers for the bit to raise up but it was the bit slipping out of the collet rather than the motor defying gravity.
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Yep, I have had the router bit getting loose, too. No scary moments, though. I always teach that just like a gun not being ponted at anyone, to body parts above spinny cutty things, ever.
--
Jim in NC



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On 8/8/2010 3:10 PM, Josepi wrote:

Upcut spiral? If so that's common. When I use one of those I clean the collet and the bit _every_ time using a .50 caliber bore brush, a .50 caliber jag and patches, and lacquer thinner as solvent. So far haven't had one come out since I started doing that.

Yeah, I was fortunate enough to not get bitten by it.
To paraphrase Melville, I will not have a man in my shop who is not afraid of a router.

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I think a lot of the problem is home table saw guards aren't good enough. The first table saw I had was a Craftsman entry-level saw, and the guard did not align with the saw blade at all. My current saw is a Ridgid, and the guard takes a few minutes to adjust to be behind the blade exactly, and has to be removed to allow trimming 1/8"-1/4" off one side to get a decent edge.
There's better mounting mechanisms (behind the blade on the blade height riser [riving knife style]) and new guard designs to allow trimming cuts (each side of the guard moves independently) but I haven't used either of them yet to say if they're really better.
Puckdropper
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"Lobby Dosser" wrote:

None are equipped with guards, all are equipped with a removable splitter, zero clearance plates and a 2P-30A, non-fused disconnect.
Standard procedure is to leave saw in the blade down position and the disconnect in the "OFF" position.
Also the disconnect is in the "OFF" if you are even going to think about removing the throat plate to change blades, install dado, remove/replace splitter, etc.
Did not have a disconnect on my personal saw; however, did have a plug and receptacle the served the same function.
NEVER trust just a switch, sooner or later it will bite you.
A visible disconnect is your friend.
Lew
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Lew Hodgett wrote:

From first posting I see in this thread...

Those two don't correlate. It's hard to imagine the CC insurance company inspection allows them to operate w/o guards; I know certainly in the cabinet shop in the local community college they are very proactive in safety procedures and equipment. AFAIK in the 39 years' existence there has not been a tablesaw accident.
If I were on the board of that CC as on this one, there would be an immediate review after any incident and steps taken immediately...
As for the PM66 vis a vis Unisaur; I've had/used all the aforementioned and while don't have anything except the PM at the moment to actually measure, there has never been significant-enough difference between them that I'd ever in roughly 40 years noticed it...I'd surely like to see some measured data and post mortems that really indicate the time itself is a major factor in these accidents.
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dpb wrote: ...

And, actually, even more than the insurance folks who are generally more of the "helpful in spotting problems types" in their reviews, it's the regional accreditation team that's the real stickler and the ones can't see how any institution would be able to get around...
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The only problem I have with all these safety devices is that, in my experience with the Fire Department, they do tend to have unintended consequences; that being that people tend to be less concious of safety. The government can only do so much to require things to be foolproof. There really is no such thing. My wife's car tells the driver when the lights are left on, to fasten a seat belt, if a door is ajar, if the trunk lid or hood is open, if the fuel level is low, and probably several other things that I've not yet had the occasion to experience. And I'm not even going to tell you about the GPS!! It's enough to give me an inferiority complex.
Max
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First time I ever experienced the Talking Car was a Renault rental in Santa Barbara about 25 years ago. I got so bent out of shape at it, I hunted down the connector and unplugged it. Told the rental guy when I turned it in and he asked me to show him how to disconnect it as he had complaints from everyone who drove one of the Renaults.
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