Re: SawStop files with GPO/CPSC for mandatory use in US

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I'd say this discussion is not about safety. It is about the business tactics of SawStop. One of their tactics is to show gory pictures of fingers which have been chopped off. One of their tactics is to say "if you are against this you are against safety". One of their tactics is to petition the government to get their proprietary product mandated so that they can sell it. I find this approach manipulative, offensive, anti-competitive and generally sleazy.

Leon, you seem to keep insisting that this regulation is necessary in order to bring the product to market? Why is this the case? Can't they sell it without someone MAKING you buy it?

Leon, safety sells. How many million$ were spent producing advertisements that you have seen showing side airbags and other automotive safety features? How many soccer moms bought volvos based on their reputation for safety? I know many many people who have taken crashworthiness as one of the prime criteria in selecting a new car. People will pay a premium for an automobile which is safer. That SawStop can not capitalize on people's demand for safe products and must have their product mandated by the government is an indication that their product is unwanted at the current price. Perhaps they could try to make it better and cheaper so that people will actually demand it instead of trying to ensure a monopoly through regulation? Build a better mousetrap and all that...
-Jack
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It has come to not being about safety... Seems to have come to a few thinking they are loosing their entire rights as they always use the rights in a plural term.

No, I don't insist. I simply hope this product or one like it is still on the market when I decide to buy again. My openion is that if the government makes it manditory, I will not have to worry about this feature disappearing.

You make a good point. But, Oldsmobile had the air bag in the early 70's on the Toronado. Ford and Chrysler did also IIRC n certain vehicles. But, we did not see the air bags become main stream until they were government mandated. Also, the air bags came one at a time so to speek. Frst the one in the steering wheel..then some years later, the passenger side air bag, then the side air bags, then the back seat air bags. For what ever reason, Air bags did not become a common feature for a good 15 years after they were introduced. All these corporations are huge and had the money to do the research and development and were already in the car building business. Saw Stop is a start up company with much less capitol and an equally effective safety device. I would hate to see it disappear because of lack of capitol or the inability to hold out for 15 years like the automotive industry did.
Perhaps they could try to make it better and cheaper so that people

I believe that they have taken that route. The have attended numerous trade shows, contacted most all the saw manufacturing companies and while the trade shows appear to have been successful with the puplic, the saw manufacturers apparently felt that our safety was not warrented and would not take the first step. I would be willing to bet that if the manufacturers had taken a survey of their dealers, and customers, we would see the option today. So IMHO part of the blame can be cast towards the saw manufacturers. While I would prefer to see the devices offered as options, the saw manufacturers have decided not to voluntarily offer the option. Why are we not jumping down their throats to offer a similar device of their own design? I believe that if the product dis become readily available the saws with out the feature would eventually be gone from production.
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That is yor assumption.. You read a lot into what you read that does not exist.
I will buy one with my next saw purchase.

Sure I do and Capitolism is alive and well. And SawStop is apparently doing every thing with in their rights and the law. If you are so opposed to the setup and method of delivery stop the name calling and do something about it. Fight the petition and quit whining.

That too and them from you.
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<g> that's 50 posts! dave
Leon wrote:

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Why? because they are not shipping the saws? good enough reason? You keep harping on the same "buy one now" but no matter how much you want one, they are not on the market, they are not available, they are not in the stores.
I'd consider one on my nest saw also. Why next? I have no idea when, if ever, I'll buy another saw and I don't know when they will ship so I cannot plan on getting one just yet.
Until they start manufacturing and shipping, you should find a real argument. You just sound silly asking the same question when the answer is so obvious. THEY DON'T EXIST YET. Ed
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"SawStop Table Saws Now Available" http://www.sawstop.com/ordering.htm

I would have considered one for my next saw too, had it not been for $aw$top's latest ploy. Leon keeps harping on the importance of safety, saying that we need a government mandate to protect everyone -- but he's not concerned enough about his own safety to buy one.

YES THEY DO.

-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
Save the baby humans - stop partial-birth abortion NOW
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What, your safety is not important enough to buy one of them "Powermatic" style saws with the SawStop now? You told me a few months ago that the saw is available - even pointed me to a web site.
I guess the old adage applies - if it looks like a hypocite, smells like a hypocrite, and walks like a hypocrite, it must be a hypocrite.

Don't worry Leon. Sounds like there are plenty of us willing to fight this. Rick
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<snip>

It'll have to wait til lunchtime - I can't drink beer before I golf.

Agreed.
Yahbut, he could have done an end around and surveyed the potential end users. Nothing like a grassroots market - you can bet that if enough people asked the funeral homes for info on those new burial vaults, he'd have made a mint.
That, or he could have jacked up the price. :-)

Agreed.
Pretty much the case, I suspect. I'd be curious to see how many people actually placed "pre-orders" for the SawStop saw.
Rick
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Grassroots--Har!
For the funeral directors to make the same net dollars at the same profit margin, what would his price have to be? Uh-huh. Exactly what the concrete vaults cost. Not much incentive since the public don't give a damn, and if the knew they'd probably say, "You're putting Louie in styrofoam?" Dig it?
Bob
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Actually air bags have available since the early 70's and were offered on select vehicles by the big 3. IIRC one of the big 3 had royalty rights to the bag. That might explain why it took 20 to 25 years or so before it became common to see air bags on a wider variety of cars.
The government is the last say as to whether a company is a monopoly. And, since SawStop has offered the petition with all particulars to the government, the government will determine if the company would operate as a monopoly and may or may not grant the petition dependent on its decision. I feel confident that if the government grants the petition and mandates the modification, that it felt that particulars would not be preventing competition to develop alternatives to perform in an equal manner. You can bet that the saw manufacturers attorneys will be all over this and point out obvious problems with the petition if there are in any actuality problems with competition being able to compete. IMHO SawStop is above board in that it has legally petitioned the government and that the attorneys of possible or future competitors should be examining this quite closely.
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On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 02:11:04 GMT, "Leon"

I view things like blade guards and SawStop in the same category as insurance. They provide a protection that it is almost foolish to live without. But you can get various levels of coverage. The SawStop device is a bit like carrying full accident coverage on your car with no deductible. Personally I decide what level of risk I am willing to assume and adjust my actions accordingly.
I'll stick with my regular guard and reasonable caution, that's a level of risk I am willing to assume at a cost I am willing to pay.
Tim Douglass
http://www.DouglassClan.com
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Great decision Tim, that is what works best for you and you seem to have actually thought this out.
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I just quickly counted how many posts to this thread you have already made--over 44! You are making this a full time crusade, I take it?? <g> Go have a beer and stay away from sharp tools for a while. Everyone has their opinion on this SawStop thing.
dave
Leon wrote:

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I thought it was 50.... Gee s are you bored... Ha...
No, I am not making a crusade at all.... I blows me away to think that my very own thoughts on the subject are so threatening to every one. Am I really presenting that good of an argument in my beliefs that most every one is so damn scared that it will happen? I really do not have any monetary interest in the Saw Stop. Dont kill the messenger.....
Unfortunately I have to stay away from the TS, I tried to tilt the blade without taking out the zero clearance insert and well, that blade is on its way to Forrest and an new one is on its way to its new home. Tick Tock.... Every one does have their opinion and right to voice it.. Its that freedom of speech thing.... Cracks me up the with all the name calling....

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I AM surprised that you have spent so much time debating this one issue. I'm not trying to kill the messenger. I just don't agree that it is a wise idea for the government to get involved in this type of legislation. Who was calling you names? I'll kick their butts! <g>
Sorry to hear you tweaked your blade...
dave
Leon wrote:

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Mike,
I answered so many posts for such a long time yesterday that I will have to take your work on what you say I said and or what you think you said... LOL... This is what makes our country great. We can all show our views and that is OK. If the views were always one sided or no one ever stepped up to voice another opinion, this would be a boring place. I appreciate you concern about the government getting more involved in our lives. I can also appreciate or accept that some times we have to give up a little to get something else that may want. Life often throws us a curve and we have to compromise to maintain the course. This issue is one that I am willing to compromise on. I don't expect you or any one else to change their minds unless you do so willfully.
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[snip]

is that $aw$top wants to use the power of the Federal government to force every table saw buyer to make the same compromise, whether they are willing to do so or not -- and that's contrary to the principles of freedom.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
Save the baby humans - stop partial-birth abortion NOW
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How do you figure that? I'm not aware of any principle of freedom that allows taking innocent life, simply because it's inconvenient.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
Save the baby humans - stop partial-birth abortion NOW
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On 11 Jul 2003, Doug Miller spake unto rec.woodworking:

    The Supreme Court disagrees - women have been free to have abortions for 30 years now, whether you like it or not. Your hypocrisy is in supporting only those freedoms that you agree with.     
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I don't view it that way. Rather, I see it as a hierarchy of rights, and if the right to life itself is denied, all other rights are pretty much meaningless.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)
Save the baby humans - stop partial-birth abortion NOW
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